Did Hospice rush your loved ones death?

Benice, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. Cancer sucks. It takes too many good people and causes took much suffering. No matter how good anyone's hospice experience may be, the situation is never good. I think your head tells you it's the best thing but your heart disagrees. How can losing a loved one ever be a good thing? Hang in there and do the best you can. That's really all anyone can do.

How on earth did people manage to fall out on a site such as this for heaven’s sake? We’ve probably all lost someone and been through a lot as a result. Lashing out at others won’t change anything however and you can include how you feel in that. The original opening post and anything added since is all valid and no one’s opinion is more valid than someone else’s. Disagreement with another’s opinion tends to occur naturally given that we’re all different people but there’s no need to squabble.

I think someone has already mentioned hospice generally won’t intravenously supply fluids but that doesn’t mean patients are allowed to die of thirst. In my experience they’re continuously supplied, refreshed up to the point the patient refuses to take them, which in nearly all cases they will. Near the end it becomes too difficult to swallow. You might think supplying it intravenously then is the logical answer but it isn’t much like forcing them to eat isn’t.

In my own experience with my Father the medication he was on made him feel thirsty but trying to give him water simply made him choke as it wouldn’t go down his throat. We asked if he would consider a tube but he wouldn’t. He knew what was going on and why and didn’t want to… maybe he thought it would prolong the inevitable. I’m not a Doctor but I’m not sure if being supplied water when you’re that close to death would actually prolong anything anyway. Takes roughly ten to twelve days to die of thirst unless I am mistaken and anyone who believes hospice allow anyone to go that long without water is mistaken.

I’m sure not everyone is the same but terminally ill people tend to slip in to unconsciousness in the last stages of life (hours to days before the end) and unless everything I have ever read on the subject matter is wrong are not at that stage experiencing any discomfort, distress or physical pain as a result of lack of fluids. The inside of the mouth dries as they’re unable to swallow but that is swabbed and moistened regularly.

As always, has to be said and understood by all of us who read others accounts of the last days of their loved ones lives and general opinion/s some may well have suffered a particularly bad experience and as a result have reason to believe that this or something similar is the therefore the same in every case. We shouldn’t argue with anyone who feels that way. We should rightly sympathise and show compassion as if the loss is not enough to deal with the fact that others might have made it any more unpleasant is incredibly sad but at the same time tell our own stories, give our own account of what we experienced in the hope they will see for many hospice can and do do incredible things… not just for the dying but also their friends and family.

I've decided to unsubscribe from this site. I went through so much with my Dad's death and now my Mom is facing the same. Cancer is just awful for all involved and the thought of having to face the inevitable with a chance of another rude comment I'm simply not willing myself to go through. I'm so happy to see so many people supporting and showing love and I think that's so great. Peace to all...

Veronica91 Your words were nothing short of kind and considerate of my concerns. As you said, most of us including myself are dealing with very frayed nerves and it's nice to get a response from someone genuinely showing love to a hurting soul. I thank you.
Windytown, The attack you chose on myself and Guilty1 does not belong on this site. As it states, NO NAME CALLING, there's no need for that. Guilty 1 was only sharing exactly what she felt. Nothing mean. Nothing wrong with that. I shared only what was told by a nurse in charge of a Hospice team. As my username says, Be Nice. Nothing I said was mean or malicious. Because I did offend I honestly would like to delete the first comment but I honestly don't see how.
Windytown...Be Nice!

bernice most people here are functioning with nerves frayed thin and in that state there are frequently misunderstandings. What is often misunderstood is when hospice workers tell you no fluids will be given what they mean is that no IV fluids will be given which is true. Big difference. A Hospice patient can continue to eat and drink as they are able, it is up to them. if a gastric tube is already in place the patient may continue to be fed that way, in time the gut will slow so much that the feedings have to be stopped because the stoach does not process the food it already has.
properly administered doses of morphine will relive the patients pain and assist breathing but if the patient refuses his whishes should be honored. it is his pain and his death so he has the right to manage it. if he becomes violent warards family and they wish he can be removed from the home. people vary in whether they wish to remain alert or wait to pass in a medically induced coma. Such things a propol that must be administered in a hospital setting and monitored by an anesthetologist. a patient may become semi conscious on morphine but still rousable. When no longer rousable it is normally disease progression not drug induced. Things move very quickly and as i have posted before many wait till death is knocking on the door before calling hospice.
Hospice is always the choice of the patient and caregivers and a patient can leave at any time if they improve and be later be readmited. No Dr can order the patient enroll in hospice they can only authorize recommend and encourage. this is the reason many patients die within a few days or even during the actual admission. It is not in the interests of a hospice to rapidy kill off their patients. They get paid a daily rate for caregiving not for the number of deaths they clock each month.

I'd like to edit my comment to be clearer but I don't see anywhere I can edit. I can't imagine how hard it must of been for you guilty1. When a loved one is in so much pain and the illness of the body is taking over all immune systems. There needs to be help. I'm extremely upset because just yesterday my Mom's nurse said hospice is starting for her and when hospice starts no liquids would be given to my Mom to stop the heart. Morphine would be given instead. I was shocked that my Mom was told this. So was her doctor who said she's not ready for hospice. I googled "Does hospice stop liquids to stop the heart of someone dying." That's how I found this site. There's so much exhaustion and confusion when a loved one is fighting for life or dying. I agree with using hospice when a person is dying. Sadly my Dad had a bad experience with Hospice too. Hospice arrived for the first time. I was in the room when he was groaning in pain from cancer and refused to take morphine. He wanted to be present mind. Very important to him. He still joked and was kind. His wish was no morphine. The hospice nurse told me, he needs morphine and he has no say, he's not thinking straight. I watched my skinny frail Dad lying in bed with arms flying in the air fighting this nurse off as he was yelling, "Get out". I felt powerless. I got my sister in the other room and she told the nurse to get out. I volunteered to change my dad's diapers. He died in his sleep right when I was about to hire someone to turn him so no bedsores. Can someone tell me how to edit. Obviously my comment didn't come across the way I intended and I definitely don't want to upset anyone. That would be a very evil thing to do when someone is going through what we are and that's not my intentions. So how do I take off my first comment?

Countrymouse,

Guilty1 and Comeonalready have made exactly ONE comment on AgingCare. They are some kind of death trolls that are preying on hurting people. Shame on them!

Comeonalready, when my dad's brain tumor became so huge it blinded him and any liquid administered to him would result in pneumonia, Yeah it's a big deal! We had to wet his lips with Q-Tips to prevent aspiration.

Comeonback, when you have something intelligent to add to this discussion instead of harming people that are in the throes of real dying situations.

No qualified hospice would say that. My dad had liquids available 24/7 as long as he was able to swallow. Sure, when he went comatose there was no IV with fluids, that's what hospice is for goodness sakes. I don't think you understand the meaning of hospice. It's end of life not keeping someone alive by artificial means. Geez!

My dad had a DNR. He was kept comfortable until he passed.

Comeonback and tell us how horrible we are if you dare. In my mind you're just internet trolls that want to hurt people that have already have enough life changing pain in their lives.

Your mother was told what she was told, fine; but either she misunderstood or the person who told her this was explaining very badly indeed. I'm sorry to be short-tempered about it but death is quite hard enough to witness without people's having to fear that their loved one is being deliberately harmed or neglected by their nursing team.

And I am delighted to learn that your mother is doing well. I wish her complete remission.

Hospice does quicken death. My Mom was told by Hospice that they stop all liquids to stop the heart. That's quickening death. End of story. My Mom refused Hospice and is doing just fine. She's almost done with radiation treatments.

Guilty1, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with hospice. For the majority, it was very helpful at a really hard time and I hope your words don't discourage someone from at least trying them out. If she was dying of cancer 'a few days' as you put it yourself, can make a big difference in the patient's condition.

My dad was on hospice for two and a half months. He required morphine for the pain in his last week. Sometimes cancer takes people down quickly. I'd blame the disease, not the hospice. Let go of the guilt.

Same thing with my mom. Mom was alert, talking ,sitting at table eating. A few days later hospice started the morphine. I asked them to lower dose, because now she was virtually comatose. Hospice said you don't want to see her in pain. She died three days later. Don't think I will ever get over the guilt of allowing hospice in.

vstefans and junesbuggy thank you for saying you think i did the right thing, that is so good to hear, let me tell you. so whether it was internal bleeding or mottling, it seems as if my mum had truly reached the end of her natural life. ive googled photos of both and i would lean towards the internal bleeding, it really did look exactly like pics of Grey Turner sign, and there was no mottling anywhere else on her ie legs/arms. but it could have been either really. junesbuggy it sounds like if we hadnt been offered a room at the hospice, mum could have had the most horrendous time that night if the pain relief had been insufficient.

i believe the low blood pressure and the tea coloured urine are also end signs? i forgot to mention the ascites, her abdomen was so tight and swollen.

Dhilbe, the nurse did pop in 2 or 3 times, she could have been monitoring mum in a subtle way, while talking to me.

the fact that the hospice nurse made a point of saying to me, this is not going to hurry anything along, makes me think they are aware of some opinions about hospice. i cling to that. at the time we were offered a room, i had no idea whatsoever about what some people think about hospice. i had no signal at my mums so could not google anything.
so lovely to find this place. thank you.

Hello, Camelia, across the pond... the world is getting so much smaller. Like you I just stumbled over your text ... and it touches my heart so, since I spent 2 years in your country as an au-pair about 60 years ago in the mid 50s. Have wonderful memories, wanted to stay there in the Guildford area , but of course there is this visa-thing.... soooo, back to Germany. Now I am in the middle of US and want to tell you- having worked in Nursing here - please do not blame yourself as having done anything wrong or having forgotten anything... Even with my medical knowledge, I worked my head off for 5 years plus, to care for my Mom with multiple heavy-duty problems and Father with dementia, plus other ailments... I tried to be on top of everything, yet mistakes happen, but are always caught very fast and reversed, as the medical personnel is on constant watch over the patients... anything administered to a patient, medication, food, bath, treatments... is always followed up for reaction to the item... and charted...
Pain-medication is top of the chart... any dose is constantly checked after administration, for multiple reasons,... allergies... other reactions, and relief status to the patient condition...
Morphine is often given for severe pain relief, and has been so thoroughly studied as to it’s effect on the lungs.. that the dosages are very strictly assigned according to patient condition.
You may not have even been aware of the fact that the nurse walking in - is not just talking to you - but at the same time quietly counting your Mom’s respiration... very important with morphine... to check on the difference between her respiration count prior to the morphine shot and respiration ½ hour or so later... the count of which has to match a certain standard or else other measures would be taken to increase it or otherwise change it... If nothing was given to her later, the dosage and breathing was within parameters....
I’ve got to run now, but hope to answer more Qs later, and I wish you well till then..

Camellia, you did the right thing. The purple could have been mottling which occurs shortly before death. It's much better to know your mom passed peacefully and not in pain. Pancreatic cancer is absolutely the worst and most painful disease, so if you were able to help lessen that pain, that was really a blessing.

I honestly don’t know but now strongly believe that the drugs administered towards the end of a terminally ill person’s life do in fact bring about their end BUT as much as I loved my dad and didn’t want him to go I didn’t want to see him suffer and therefore don’t have issue with it.

At the end decisions regarding his care even at home, to a certain degree when and what was administered by the nurses was more up to us than him. Not to say he wasn’t aware before it happened he most certainly was but I’m not sure he was completely aware as to the affect they would have on him. Once administered in the quantities they were to all intents and purposes we had already lost him… within two days however he was gone, gone.

My relationship with him over the years was not an easy one although older age allowed us both the chance to be a little less stubborn and a lot closer as a result. I was someone who found the fact he’d always been a big and strong man reduced to an old one by time, long before the cancer heart breaking so those last few months were possibly the hardest of my life. The last days and moments I am sure will stay with me forever but I know we did the right thing by him. He was a proud and pragmatic person who would not have wanted to be as he was.

I find myself now longing for something that I know can never be and yet I still do it… and that is to know he is OK, wherever he might be. NOT that he was OK with what happened, just OK.

I think in nearly all cases we love our family and friends dearly. We may have been as close as close can be all our lives or distant and spent time with them infrequently but the finality in death and the fact it robs us of any chance to love more or make up, find a way back, to build bridges, a chance to make things better, or to just say sorry and so on is hard to accept. Letting go is the hardest thing to do. Anything that might bring about that finality we naturally find abhorrent and completely alien to us but we must. Not for us but for them.

You wouldn’t fret on the first day of your holiday that it will end in a week or so… so it is with life. We the living, the lucky cannot and should not contemplate the finality that will be the very end of our lives nor the physical and emotional torment of terminal illness, face the end and somehow let go of life and everything in it but just for a moment try…

You/we cannot save them. All we can do is hope we can make their last days, hours, moments peaceful.

Camellia, your mom had probably a complete obstruction of bowel function and yes, something inside probably ruptured, due to erosion or direct extension from the tumor. They could have tried some kind of surgery as would be done emergently for someone who did not have an end stage cancer situation, but she was almost certainly too frail to have gotten her through that, and giving enough pain medication to keep her comfortable at that point was almost certainly exactly the right thing to do.

I would bet a fair sum you and mom said all the things to each other that ever needed said before she left this world, and missing that one last chance you would have loved to have will not matter so much in the light of eternity....but sorry for your loss, and know that most everyone second guesses something, it's only normal, even if you made all the best choices you possibly could. The whole year full of first milestones since a death of a loved one can hit you hard in the most surprising ways - here's hoping you have friends and family who understand and support!

I'm from the UK so dont know if that makes a difference.i lost my beloved Mum (82) to pancreatic cancer in Oct 2014,6 months on I'm still pre-occupied with this subject.
After diagnosis mum spent 3.5 weeks in hospital,I visited several hours daily.on coming home we were put under local non profit charity hospice which has a fab reputation.i moved in as sole carer,only child of an only child so no help and her dementia husband living there also. I adored my mum and am glad I was there for her. But don't know what to think about her last couple of days.
The specialist hospice nurse visited several times over a couple weeks,she was lovely and in the absence of a family member to share all my concerns, she listened and understood.
Mum was stage 4 advanced,was eating very little,could barely stand with frame, on the Wednesday on trying to help mum up she was suddenly in agony when moved from lying, but wanted toilet, no way could I move her, I called the carers, they couldn't move her and called paramedics,end result after 2/3 hours very undignified and painfully mum used commode and was put in bed.i remember they said her blood pressure was low, now she had high blood pressure for most of her life. She managed to use commode the following day too but honestly I was so scared of dropping her. Her urine was dark syrup colour and she said she felt something was blocked. Later that day (thurs) she was in considerable pain, I was on phone to hospice, panicked and frightened, the nurse came and gave mum an injection of what they called just in case meds, this wore off pretty quickly and mum was in pain again so another half dose given. Mum felt she would be sick and dribbles of something brown were coming from her mouth. Nurse said they had 1 vacant room at the hospice and tbh the relief I felt was massive, I was constantly frightened of what might happen and guessed mum was nearing the end as she was so so frail and ate very little etc. she did say at one point while crying with pain that she wanted to go up. So mum was taken to the hospice,nurse did warn me there was a risk she might die on way after being moved and was I ok with that but I felt having medical staff taking proper care and as she said to me, doing all the practical things while I could just be s daughter not carer for last few days was the right way. She made a point of saying when offering the room, this is not going to hurry anything along. So I fully expected to chat with mum agsin, mentally she was 100%.
Lovely hospice staff made me up a bed in mums room,I do remember talking to a doctor but tbh that part is a blur, I think I just gave details etc. mum was on a syringe drive pump but was sleeping peacefully. With it now being 11pm it didn't occur to me she was unconscious, rather I thought out of pain and therefore sleeping. I expected to see doctor next day as after she left, just nurses at the hospice, all very nice and caring and made me tea and happy to listen/chat even at that time. Mum passed away about 4am, I was in the room awake and know she did not suffer. I went home about 5 and didn't see doctor again.the nurse who had visited at home and offered the room called me the following evening but tbh I was a bit in shock so didn't think to ask any of the questions I now ponder.
Just to add, the nurse noticed massive purple staining all over her lower abdomen when she was admitted, which I have since googled and found is a sign, I think, of internal bleeding.
The things I wonder are: did mum did of internal bleeding? Was she showing all the end signs? Did the hospice give too much meds? It seemed she went in and died. Would she have died at home that night anyway and if at home with just me and dementia husband there what she may have had to go through. Did I do the right thing?
This has been consuming me. I saw the hospice counsellor who reassured me they were able to be very accurate with their doses and that you had to place trust in the medical staff. She let me waffle on and was so nice.
Sorry for the long post, thank you for reading, would appreciate any thoughts. I feel so alone as my thoughts chase round in my head. My heart goes out to everyone affected like this. I have spent most of the day reading this entire thread since stumbling on it this morning and simply had to post. God bless all

I'm not trying to upset anyone, but yes. I watched my brother, who I loved very much, starve to death right in front of me, often reaching for water or the sink. I believe if he had insurance things might have gone differently. Also, the person who got us to sign the papers to move him there told me that sometimes people got better and that they would continue to feed and medicate him for his infection. It was presented as an alternative type of treatment. He was very sick, and we were taking all the machines and cold equipment out of the picture, but I was in no way ready to let him just die like that. I was very angry. I was horrified. It was not what I expected at all. My sister also did not have insurance. The hospital knew my 87-year-old mom couldn't hear well and they waited till all of us kids were briefly out of town to tell my mom she should make my sister, Mary, more comfortable. My mom thought they were moving her to a quieter room, etc. Instead, the unplugged her life support. When we found out and asked the hospital/doctor to put it back, explaining that my mom did not know what she was agreeing to, they refused. That very same week a surgeon on the case suggested that I contact some of the area burn units to see if they might be able to help us treat my sisters severe infection. Mary died three days later. People seem to love volunteering and or working in them but the whole subject just makes me angry. Maybe if I didn't feel that I had been lied to, it would be different.

It varies from organization to organization our from state to state. I have seen the absolute worst to absolute best (which was an inpatient unit). No two organisations seen to have the same criteria, but one home care decided that since my father had bladder cancer, her should not be treated for a urinary tract infection. Another thought my father-in-law was better off having continual seizures than being hospitalized. He fell out of his wheelchair and hit his head and had to be hospitalized (he was in assisted living). A very wonderful ER doctor helped get him into an inpatient hospice where he passed away peacefully.. my mother recently was hospitalized with aortic stenosis and a GI bleed (Heyde syndrome), sent home too soon and hemorrhaged. Upon readmidsion, no one thought she would survive, but she did. I was under a lot of pressure to put her on hospice. I agreed to palliative care, but a lot of doctors and nurses don't understand the difference between palliative and hospice. Anyway, she went through rehab, her blood count is stable, and she is home with home health care. The only difference in care is that we don't have a minister coming, which I don't need, and we don't have morphine. She's doing well and can see her doctors. I'll take that over home hospice any day.

the drug combo is morphine & Ativan

Alarming, I am sure there is some element of truth in the stories you were told, but perhaps your MIL didn't know the full story or is confusing details. Hospice is ONLY for persons with terminal illnesses.

To qualify for hospice a patient must have a prognosis of dying within 6 months (not 2 weeks). No one can predict exactly when death will occur and many people are on hospice for longer.

Morphine and other drugs are available to keep the patient out of pain and severe anxiety. They are to make the patient comfortable, not to hasten death.

My husband was on hospice at home. I was given the drugs to administer as I saw fit. We didn't use the morphine at all, because my husband wasn't in pain. I did use pills for anxiety.

The nurse advised me not to "push" food, but to make food and beverage available if he wanted it. He ate a lot of popsicles! The day he died he had a normal breakfast and did not care to eat the rest of the day.

If the stories you were told are fully true, then I agree it is heartbreaking. And probably violates laws and care center regulations. This is why I wonder if your MIL might be mistaken about what she observed.

I was told that when a hospice patient cries for water and food, some of her co-worker gave them water or juice discreetly because they pity these hospice patients and that made them live longer. For that reason, they were blamed for making the hospice patient lives for 2 weeks longer.

Let me tell you what my mother-in-law, a care giver told me. She told me stories from her work that really puzzled me. I'm still adjusting here in America and have so many things to learn and must accustomed to. But her stories really disturbed me. According to her, if the patient was categorized as hospice patient, he or she has no longer two weeks to live. By the patients family's decision and the nurse order, they will give the hospice Patient morphine and the other drug (sorry I forgot the name) round o clock. During her first months there, it was really heart breaking to hear some patients ask for water and food because they were complaining they were hungry or thirsty. And they were not allowed to give them anything for it will take them longer to die. I come across this thread because I want to know if what these people did was legal. Knowing that most of their hospice patient do not suffer from terminal illness like most of your loved ones. According to my mother-in-law, some patient's daughter or son asked their homecare to give morphine to their loved ones to avoid paying bills. If this is true, this is so heartbreaking.

I to felt that hospice hastened my sisters death. It's been almost 3 months now and I feel differently.
I went back through the journal I had
Been keeping of her disease
(Glioblastoma),messages, emails and pictures,
I could then see how she was really suffering. In some of the messages I was praying for God to end her suffering. Even though I knew she was dying it was still very devastating when it actually happened. It doesn't matter now if hospice did
R did not hasten her death. She was pain free and comfortable until the end.

Alice I agree with the others that say that had nothing to do with his death. It was given to calm him down. That's way different than cyanide which is given to kill. Your intention was to calm, not to kill.

This thread is incredibly long and it has been hard to keep up. Some people have had great experiences with hospice. Others think that their loved ones were "over medicated" and that this overmedication is what caused their loved one's death. It really needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. In your case it's clear you did nothing to contribute to his death. Please be at peace.

Alice please listen to Windy she is absolutely correct. If one little Lorazepam could kill someone I can not imagine the results. I am sure the nurse was not in the least alarmed by the way he died it is very usual and nothing to do with what you did or did not give him. Please be at peace and allow your grief to find it's own way.
Blessings

Alice21811, I'm really sorry for the loss of your dad. It's always SO hard. My condolences to you.

It seems that the event of him losing control of his bowels was new? I apologize if that's not correct. From my experience with my dad, they lose all control of bodily functions at the end. The body more or less lets go/sets the soul free of your loved one.

One lorazepam or another won't make a difference either way. It's not cyanide. Get that idea out of your head, please. You did not kill your dad. The disease killed him. I have a FIL aged 84 with bone mets. It's progressive.

Please let the guilt go. You don't need forgiveness. You didn't do anything wrong, seriously. He was 90. The lorazepam didn't kill him, cancer did. Please allow yourself time to grieve without any blame.

I'm glad to hear that other people have the same concern that I do. My Dad, aged 90, died of prostate cancer (metastatic bone cancer). In his last couple of days the hospice people told me over the phone when to give him morphine and/or lorazepam (he kept refusing the morphine; he wasn't in pain). On the morning he died (at home), I came into the room to find that his bowels had let go over night and I called the hospice nurse to come and help me because I couldn't physically change his depends or clean him up by myself. The nurse asked if Dad was agitated, and instructed me to give him one lorazepam to calm him by the time she could get to us. She lives about 45 minutes away. I gave it to him and when nurse arrived, she greeted him and took his pulse, and helped him turn over. His breathing changed then, and he died. I have been distraught at the thought that I gave him that pill to calm him and it calmed him so much that he died! Did I kill my Dad? Everyone says, no I didn't, but I just can't shake it. If I gave someone cyanide and they died, that would be murder. I gave Dad lorazepam and he died; how could it not also be murder? Oh, sure, he was about to die anyway, but aren't we all going to die anyway, someday? I feel so awful. I keep praying and praying for forgiveness. I wish I hadn't given Dad that pill.

I have two personal hospice stories:

My MIL (dementia) has been on hospice for 17 months. They are a big help to me and to her. They never force meds - it's all about her comfort. They provide much appreciated advice and send an aid to bathe her 3x/wk. That's a big deal to me as she is on this long, long, same, same pattern for now.

My wonderful husband was on hospice for 2 weeks before he died. In his case the cancer was causing excruciating pain..........unending pain. Hospice did medicate him in efforts to try to get him some relief. Unfortunately, his pain was relentless and nothing really helped. (His tumor had taken over his abdominal wall and was thickening so rapidly that his digestive system could not metabolize any pain meds). We had a port etc but it was a nightmare. Cancer pain was torturing my sweet husband and I had to watch :(
Hospice helped us as much as possible. Even placing an n/g tube which is not customary but it helped with the pressure because he was totally blocked. Hospice never abandoned us (like the medical community did). They stayed
with us till the end and I am grateful. Very grateful.

Back to my MIL's case...................she is still here after 18 months on hospice. She is comfortable (howbeit cantankerous) and I occasionally give her hospice prescribed meds when she gets agitated and frustrated. And it helps. I appreciate hospice. I really do.

Jeannie and Windy, I did a long post of the subject of guilt and murder but it "mysteriously" did not get posted. I was quite vocal on the use of these terms so won't bother to repeat so thank you for your comments they mirror my views exactly