When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

ps.: going to the original question to answer, just how much is your own sanity worth? what, if any, moral obligation is there to stay with a rotten, vicious, nasty individual.
Narcissism runs the gamut from annoying to psychopathic. To Rena, to folk who have never suffered under a narcissist, they find it hard to imagine, or it takes a long while before they realize just how damaging a 'narc' is. Personally, I would have NO contact with yours.
for myself, I have managed to work out a set of boundaries. mom is about 4 on a scale of 10 of narcissim (I think, I have never seen any test to take). If I think she is being 'narcy' I tend to just tune her out.

My mother has narcissistic personality disorder and is very negative about everything. She is in assisted living facility and I am the only one to visit. I have siblings but none of us get along because of her. When I`m sitting next to her I look at her as a stranger. The other day as I was leaving she said to me "I love you", she caught me off guard and I said it back very quietly, I don`t think she heard me. Sadly I do not lovd her and those words were too little too late, she never said that to me growing up. She also has early dementia and depression so I never know what to expect at each visit. She is 84 and tells me that she prays to God to take her, don`t know if she is serious or just wants me to feel bad. I hope.I don`t sound like a bad person but maybe it is time. She has a sad life and I get tired of trying to make her happy. I want to live my life the way I want without feeling guilty, and live where I want like my siblings do, life is too short.

mockingbird3... It can't hurt to tell her you love her also (I know you do... she's your mother)... You won't have this regret later.... Blessings...

Ah @ cmcwrink - my mother is the same way -- sweet as meringue on top of the lemon pie, but made up of plenty of lemon underneath.

She tells her caregivers that she can't wait to see me. She treats me well in front of strangers. Shoot she even can treat me well to my face. But then come the emails manipulating me into feeling as though I have wronged her somehow. It's how many master manipulators work - they are masters because they can be ever so sly about it.

Here's an example. I gave my mom a card and a small housewarming gift (a very small basket with some small cadbury eggs and other small candies) when she moved into assisted living. She's by no means out of her mind - in fact she's fully there mentally. She's just unable to take care of herself physically. She thanked me profusely. Then when I got home and called her, she was all upset because I am trying to make her fat. I am supposed to be laden with guilt and assure her that no, I'm not trying to make her fat, then go into a long explanation about how much I love her and it was something I thought she'd like, blah blah blah. This time I didn't fall for it. I told her to throw it away if she didn't want it.

The next visit I took her out for lunch. It was a whole (gasp) $16 for both of us. Again, I was thanked profusely. Got home to a nastygram telling me that I'm trying to take over her life. Again I was supposed to apologize profusely, let her know I love her, etc. etc. etc. That was my last visit - ever.

It can be so subtle, and so underhanded that it can hit you when you least expect it. My mom does not treat everyone like this. I am singled out and have been my whole life. If you asked my brother the Golden Boy, he'd paint a completely different picture of dear old Mom.

I think one reason my mom is so sweet to me and not nasty is that when I was a kid and young adult, she did get mean. She would get all overwhelmed by life and by the other kids (I'm the oldest) and lash out. She didn't insult us directly but she said things that let you know how difficult her life was, how tired she was, how upsetting everything was to her. Or she threw things in frustration or stomped around the house. If really pushed, like if you yelled back (as an adult) then the direct insults came and the screaming and yelling. Or the pronouncements about God. The last time she did that to me was decades ago. I moved away and came back very rarely after that. Called very rarely, too.

So now I haven't seen any fits or anger since I've been back. I think she knows I will go away if she does them. It doesn't stop the manipulating, though. The sighing and fidgeting in her chair about 20 times before you can't stand it anymore and ask if she's okay. Seeing a commercial on tv and she makes this sound that says volumes and means she wants to do or have whatever the commercial showed. The fact that the one little noise pushes my "please mommy / obligation" button is so frustrating to me. I want to avoid the big nasty tantrum by instinct even though there hasn't been one in years and years.

She will get a bit obstinate and fussy and complain. And my husband picks up on the slights and insults more than I do. It takes me about a day or two to finally realize what she really said! So I'm learning.

Or she complains to others knowing it will reach me. Not about me. About her situation.

I could go on listing things I'm sure everyone here is familiar with. But just know that just because a person might be polite and sweet and a southern lady doesn't mean they aren't doing all they can to get their way.

Regarding NPD people being sweet as can be...oh they can be - as long as there is something in it for them! I have had people tell me for years how nice and funny my mom was...and others that just cringe when she was in the room. It all depended on what they could do for her. Some were my friends that I confided in. Mom would be sweet as could be and my friend couldn't believe what would be saying about her. Some of course were men...or my boyfriends - ewww.

Now that she is in AL her choices are pretty limited and she will pick someone to be her "flying monkey" and either do her bidding or just agree with everything she says. Once they don't agree...they're out! They become stupid or whatever. She is currently tuning the manager of the facility into a Flying monkey. She knows we talk - so after about 6 emails back and forth with mom with me trying to smooth things over - she again said my husband hit her so I clarified what happened. She showed the facility manager my email ( not hers of course) and she told me yesterday it seemed a little mean....really?? So she can go around and lie about my husband hitting her and that's ok. Not mad at the FM - but she should know she is being used. I can see mom turning on the tears saying look, look how mean my daughter is! And I'm so nice..I don't understand. Ugh.

They are the best at acting...I believe many actors and actresses are probably narsistic also. Anything to make them look good and you to look horrible. So hard to counter it.

My Mom HAS been throwing temper tantrums with a family friend who has been helping me navigate caregiving and getting Mom to AL (and out of my house). Mom finally figured out how close B and I have become since Mom's stroke. B was Mom's friend before. Now Mom is jealous of our friendship. And guess what - she is now having temper tantrums in front of B. I find this very interesting.

I told B, who is very surprised by this new behavior but not taking it personally, that the real wonder is that we haven't seen a tantrum in over 2 years. My sister saw some when she was taking care of Mom at the very beginning. And Mom made B think it was all my sister. Now B sees how misled she was by Mom.

B says she understands Mom is scared and resentful. But B is also backing off. The usual result when Mom doesn't get her way with people. Mom will soon be at a new AL place and have lots of people to manipulate.

Oh Sad1! Did you take a page from my journal??? It amazes me the stuff we all have in common with our parents!

My mother is so sweet, but only to people not in her family. Especially strangers who might admire her. They get treated with that sticky sweet phony crap. You are right when you say some don't believe she can be anything but that sweet funny woman!

And flirting with her doctor? Oh my yes! All the males anyway. And if they do not do as she wants them to, she ignores their orders.

Once in a while, she graces me with a little sugar. I eat it up too, because it's so rare! I usually get dirty looks, snide insults or gaslighting so that I feel to blame. I have to admit she has a generous side, and takes care of me if I need something, but never anything extravagant. She has a limit to sharing. There is a line drawn.

All my life, we have not had the relationship I would have loved to have, so I am not sure why I still love and tolerate her. I have had that I hate you thought, but it fades if she is nice, and then back it comes again in the not too distant future.

Maybe because I do not yet live with her, and can stay away for a couple of days when she mistreats me. She is still healthy and able to clean her own home, bathe herself, and even does her yardwork.

I am sure that when the time comes assisted living will be what her lawyer agrees to. I do not think living with her is possible, and she would say the same thing. NO WAY.

Now that I know what she is all about, I don't let it ruffle me much anymore, and when she pushes my buttons enough to piss me off, I say bye bye and get in my car and come home.

My mom grew up in rural NC during the depression in the 30s/40s, and I would have never in a million years guessed she had been spoiled. There was too much work to do on the farm. But it totally makes sense to me that would lead to a lot of the NPD/BPD behaviors she's always had.

She raised me with the work ethic of a Puritan crossed with a slave. If you have time to sit down, you have time to do another chore, you can rest when you're dead, etc. She recently let a story out I had not heard before that explains A LOT.

When she was between 4-6 years old, she had "Bright's Disease" (an old term for non-specific kidney infection/disease) and had to stay in bed for a year. The neighbor lady brought her chocolate chip cookies and sat with her often to read to her, listen to the radio, and play with her. She was literally carried everywhere by her father. Her mother rocked her all the time. Now, I realize this is being told to me 70 years later through a very selective lens, but at a level the details don't matter. She had been the center of everyone's care, concern, and attention for a solid year. Within a short time of this illness (before or after, I'm not sure) her little baby sister died of pneumonia. I can't imagine how horrific it is to watch a baby die that way.

All of this led to her learning that if you're sick, people will drop everything and rush to your side with gifts, treats, and kindness. Now we have a 76 year old woman who has had an endless list of ongoing medical problems her entire life. She had numerous surgeries in the 70s when that was the answer to everything. She has always refused to do physical therapy, exercise, or change her diet to fix anything. Her diabetes could be fixed with dietary changes, but she tends to do the opposite of what a doctor says. If I get better, then nobody will love me, right? If I'm not sick, I'm not special or worth any affection or attention. She's been stuck at that maturity level for 76 years, manipulating her health to manipulate everyone into loving her. Twisted.

It's a major point of frustration for her that in modern times, people don't hover over or dwell on the sick, or spend all day Sunday "visiting", sitting next to the bed cooing over the sick one and how awful it must be. Sick people aren't the side show they used to be a long time ago. Nobody sends cards or flowers. She hates that today's way of thinking has patients taking control of their own situation, and that you're supposed to do what you can to help yourself, be it diet, exercise, meditation, better sleep, vitamins, etc. And that if you aren't going to do your part, you might just see the doctors step back and not take such an aggressive stance with you anymore.

Something else interesting to note: when she was telling the story of her year long battle with Bright's disease, her face lit up, she was smiling, animated, and seemed quite pleased with herself. Like this was a good memory. Twisted - again.

I also remember that she always had a train case packed for hospital stays, and a special set of silky gowns with matching robes & bedroom shoes just for wearing in the hospital. These items were always at the ready because they got used so much. And all her hospital stays were during Christmas. I was probably 12 years old before I realized that you don't have to go to the hospital at Christmas.

Wow.....I am so thakful that I turned out determined to be the opposite of this kind of person, who is happy as me, and I love myself because I'm just here, regardless of what anybody else thinks about me or what they do or don't do for me. How desperate she must feel all the time.

It is interesting to see how many of the mothers on here are sweet as honey to everyone but their own children. My sister and I thought it was just us. LOL We often say we are so sick of hearing how lucky we are to have such a wonderful mother from her friends and neighbors. We both just smile but think, " Yah? You try living with her." Sorry but it is a relief to know that our mother is just one of a large group not that it makes it any easier to deal with.

Wow - it is amazing how similar all of our stories are! My mother LOVES going to the doctor- even tho she said she is scared. She is always dressed and ready to go in her nicest sweatsuit! Lol! And the not taking care of herself...omg - same with my mother. She has never exercised ( golf years ago but used a cart) drank, smoked, ate terrible. She was so surprised when she got lung cancer. Then even more surprised when she had colon cancer. And guess what- yep - still smoked! In secret of course. Then relight after I broke my wrist and had to have surgery on it...turns out now she had corpal tunnel - had surgery too - but turns out it wasn't that - it was inflammation from arthritis and she refused to do the regiment the dr ordered and went to PT once. Actually - she had the stroke after having to have bowel surgery since she refused to walk around after she hurt her back. Just sat on the couch and ate. No walking. She even refused to go outside with me because she was afraid to go down the steps. Yet we found out she was going outside and smoking. I can't even imagine what goes on in their brains....

You know - until I found this and the forum dysfunctional families - I always won the prize for having the worst mother...so glad to share that prize now!

Sandwich, what an amazing insight you have into your mother. It makes so much sense. She was pampered when she was sick and so she sees love as pampering and only when your sick. Wow.

My mother has always hated doctors. She has said that over and over in my life. And I believed it, that doctors were "evil." But I'm starting to question this family myth. When Mom had to stay overnight in the hospital last week for tests, she looked like she was enjoying herself. She was waited on and brought her meals. She also, like others on here, responds differently with male doctors and nurses than with women. She doesn't do what anyone tells her to do like exercise, eat better, etc. Also, she says she slept wonderfully at the hospital - she never sleeps well in strange beds. I think it was the first time she'd been waited on since moving to an IL apartment 2 months ago. In the IL place, she has to follow a schedule and go get her meals at the dining room, instead of me bringing them to her.

I'm going to keep examining this "doctors are bad" myth I've been told all my life. I think there's something else there.

Funny how these threads make you remember things. My mother always expected everyone to run after her but wouldn't lift a finger to make a phone call or help anyone else, not even her own parents. If someone called her she'd listen and let it go to voicemail - sort of a control thing I think..

When people didn't run after her she was mean, hateful and spiteful. One place she lived she hated the neighbour because he was black (OMG!) but gushed all over him the day he started shoveling her driveway. One time her house was pelted with eggs and it wasn't even halloween ... hmmmm.

Two things that really stick out from her life were:

(1) the attitude of "What's in it for me"; and
(2) when complaining about how bored, lonely or how dreadful her life was she was reminded that she had a lovely house, car and more than enough money, while others were sick, homeless etc. Her reaction was always "Well, that doesn't help me does it".

It's no wonder she has no friends or visitors and even I have gone into hiding, changed my phone number and gone very low contact.

Ashlynne - your took the words right out of my mothers mouth! My latest dilemma is my mother still wants a phone to text and take pictures. She sends me an email every day almost demanding something. I keep trying to ignore them.

There has never been so much as a thank you for putting my life on hold for her for the last 2 years. The emails she sends are just oozing blame and shame. Her last one to me is she is going in for a ct scan - I had responded that it must be scary but just looking for copd. She said it again - then "you care?" To my daughter she sends I miss you , come see me....she has gotten so hateful since I stopped taking the abuse. I guess this is the narsisstic rage. Does it ever end? Will I ever be able to go see her again?

Sad my mother doesn't know how to use a computer thankfully. Years ago when I lived in the city she wanted one so I set her up but she complained there was no-one to teach her. When I moved to care for her I tried to teach her but she wasn't interested. I guess it was just another of those things that "I want, I want, I want" and once acquired she didn't want any more. She can't dial a phone any more but can have staff dial for her so there was no escaping the daily tantrum phone calls which were making me ill until I changed my phone number.

When your mother emails about health issues contact the staff and find out if it's true. It may well be a ploy to reel you in. Craving narcissistic supply I wouldn't put anything past her. I'd keep your daughter away from her as well before your mother screws her head up and up and tries to turn her against you, which is a favourite tactic among narcs.

I visited April 15, the day before her birthday, with flowers, a card and two shopping bags of chocolates and specialty cookies. She was delighted with all the stuff (though "when you come next time I want this and this") and quite pleasant. After a suitable amount of time I fled and have no plans to go back for some time. I'm slowly recovering from a lifetime of her narc abuse and I'm taking my life back!

sad, I don't know if it will ever end. Has her doc considered putting her on some meds for her mood? I seem to remember when you first posted that was a battle. Mother is finally taking her antipsychotic as the psychiatrist told her it was for the sex glands she says someone removed (paranoid delusion) I have to travel down there this week to discuss placement for her as she is in a geriatric psych hospital right now. She will go to a facility with a mental health mandate. This means one more move, disposing of furniture etc. and I am 76. I will tell them I cannot do this again so they better make it work. I know they would rather deal with me than my sister who is my back up. I drew a limit that I would not see her if she would not take the meds. Considering that she is taking them, I may see her this week - depends on the picture the social worker paints for me. I am detaching more and more, and also from my sister. Otherwise, it is too hard on my health. If I never see mother or my sister again, I am OK with that. I will look after her financial and medical/personal affairs and cooperate with the staff who care for her, but I will not be the whipping boy any more. If more nasty/crazy phone calls come, I will change my number or block her calls somehow. I agree with Lynne about limiting contact between your daughter and your mum if possible

Lynne - you are doing what is necessary for your own good/health. Glad you were able to make a visit and have it not too bad. There is always "I want I want", and then, sometimes when you do it they have forgotten about it, Kudos to us who are surviving a mentally ill parent. People not in this position have no idea what we have put up with for all our lives, and what we have to do to protect ourselves. I am so glad you are taking your life back and doing what you have to for yourself.

(((((((((hugs))))))) to both of you

My daughter thankfully can hold her own with her, she actually is the only one thank can tell her to stop acting up and she doesn't get pissy with her. She is 36 and has two boys. My mother continually tries to turn her against me - she is the one she told my husband hit her. Jennifer responded with "you are the one who hits people, not Jim!" Mom got mad and she left. What was funny is when my daughter was about 2 my mom watched her once a week for about 2 months to help me with child care, I was a single mom. She also had her for sleep overs once a month or so- kind of typical grandma stuff - and my mother said to more than one person that she practically raised my daughter! I almost choked when I heard that! My daughter said she told her that too - we both cracked up! Ashlynne - you are lucky your mother never learned how to use the computer! I thought it would be a good way for her to communicate and get off the phone thing! She had an iPad - and it did work for a while...now we are back one the demand for the phone again. I am sending an old one I have that she can take pictures with - no service. Cheap camera!

Emjo - the doctor did finally get her on anti depressants - ands she is on Serequil too - she is better - not hitting anyone or throwing fits. It seems all directed at me right now - ever since I drew the line. I feel tons better - still have some bouts of guilt - then I come read these posts and it helps. It really does amaze me who many people are in the exact same place as I am.

It still cracks me up about your mom and her sex gland thing! I can't believe you need to mover her! What would happen if we were unable to do these things for them...what happens to them?

So question for both of you - how'd I you fight the internal battle of - i should do this or that for them? I sent my mother flowers for Easter yesterday - and not a peep (pun intended). Yet she will send me one tomorrow demanding some other thing I am sure. I just still have this internal battle for some reason. I guess it is just instinctive as I have been so conditioned.

Hope everyone has a wonderful Easter! Hugs to you!🐰

Sad I had to hit rock bottom, become ill and shaky, stomach always pounding and had a blackout due to the stress. When I changed my phone number I gave it to the NH with STRICT instructions to never give it to her. I told her my phone was playing up so I got rid of it and just use cell, though I only have it on when I need to make a call so no need for her to have the number {evil grin}. After that, for some weeks, I took the phone off the hook around 3 p.m. and left it off until the next morning so the NH couldn't bother me for every little thing and nothing. There are skilled staff on duty 24/7 and there's a hospital 4km away. Whatever "it" is, I'll deal with it tomorrow.

Last fall she said her (then) phone wasn't working so I drove an hour each way into the city in the pouring rain to buy her another and stopped in on the way back to set it up. There was nothing wrong with it and I told her so. "Well, I dropped it" (pout). I fixed up the new one and gave the old one to the NH in case someone else needed one. She also kept complaining the phone wasn't working and I had the phone company go out there 3 times. There was nothing wrong with it and they told me the next time they'd charge $85. Miraculously (not) there was never anything wrong with the phone again.

It's all control and mind games and I refuse to run any more. I pick up the things she needs when I go shopping and ONLY when I do. I live out in the country and often don't shop for 3 or 4 weeks as major shopping is an hour away. I take my dogs with me, we go to the dog park, and I shop and run errands.

It's not easy to go low contact/no show but what helped me was remembering that, at my age, Mommie Dearest was shopping, getting her hair done and flipping off on exotic vacations (which were never quite nice enough mind you!) and wouldn't lift a finger to help her parents even though she didn't work, had a big fancy car (they didn't have a car) and lived around the corner as she was "too busy" Yukkk.

Wow Ashlynne...do we have the same mother?? I always wanted a sister! Lol 😄

sad - It is great that your daughter knows how to handle your mum. Wish the meds would work in your favour too. If I see mother when I go down this week, I may find out how the meds affect her behavior towards me. Do let go of the guilt as much as you can. You have nothing to feel guilty about. She is lucky to still have you around doing things for her. If I couldn't do this stuff I suppose people could he hired to do it.

Re flowers at Easter or other similar things, I found that mother complained no matter what I did, so I ended up doing what I felt like because I wanted to, not because it would please her - which it never did for long. I send what I want to because I want to , when I do, not to try to please her. Of course, I choose things that I think she would like, but if she doesn't - too bad. I tried. There are some mothers that would be delighted. I send flowers to my ex mil and upcoming mil and they are both grateful. It helps.

Lynne -I have had the run around like fixing things that did not need fixing -all attention bids as far as I am concerned. I am no "flying monkey". I agree it is not easy going low/no contact, but my stress levels remind me what I need and it is getting easier. My mother had very little to do with the care of her parents - she tried that line on me once and I reminded her of the facts, and never heard about it again, At my age, mother was traveling back and forth to Haiti and other places, doing things she wanted to do, with no burdens/demands on her from family. Very different from my life. Once my father died when she was 64, she was free to do what she wanted, and she did. They have no comprehension of their effect on the lives of others...

Have a great Easter

I recommend a book called Boundaries...and practicing being self assertive with a safe person who supports you. Parents can be very manipulative, using guilt , criticism, and withdrawal of love as weapons. Learning how to recognize this stuff as a power and control issue that belongs to them ,and not you, is the first step to peace and victory. A friend of mine who is a professional counselor says that we teach people how to treat us...we allow people to take advantage of us and mistreat us by failing to be honest about our feelings and limits...by failing to learn to say NO. Good women can and should learn this word and say it without feeling guilty

Wow. Am I ever glad I found this thread. I even picked my screen name, Notlikemom, a few years ago on another thread. I am caring for my N Mom, who has lung cancer. She and my father live with me. He also has cancer, of the bladder. It's been 2 1/2 year now, and dealing with my Mom is a challange every day.
Over tip waitresses? Done that. My husband even called the grocery store after taking Mom shopping, to appologize to the clerk for her behavior. Having everyone think she is the nicest person while you know she will start yelling the minute you are alone? Yup. Living with unreasonable demands that change almost minute to minute? All the time.
After a series of huge arguements over the past few months, Mom is currently being sort of nice to me and not even speaking to my father. Right now the worst part for me is the guilt. My mother is dying of lung cancer. It won't be today or even tomorrow, but it is happening. And I wish it was over. I take care of her, and also wish she was dead. She is mean and vindictive, and doesn't appreciate anything that is done for her.
I thought when she came to live with me, we would be close and I could help her through the end of her life. But all she's done is disrupt my family and drive me crazy. It helps to know that others are in the same situation.

hi missmac - Boundaries is a good book. The problem for some of us is that we were brought up by narcissistic mentally ill mothers, and a child does not teach a parent how to treat them. My mother had these problems far before I came along. As I grew up. I learned to put boundaries in place, but that has not done much to change her behaviour, though it has protected me to an extent. Her behaviour is pretty ingrained. Psychiatrists say there is very little they can do about the borderline personality disorder. All I can do is stay away, or go away to put distance between me and the toxicity. I can say "No" all I like -she still gets mad, and remains demanding and critical. So, I have some problems with the statement that we teach people how to treat us. This may work sometimes, and I have found it does with some people in my life, but not with all. I think it is an oversimplification.

notlike (((((((hugs)))))))) Please let go of the guilt. There is a thread here asking is it wrong to wish that someone was dead. Most say no it is not wrong. My mother does not appreciate anything people do for her, either. She manages to find something that isn't perfectly the way she wants it and then harps on that. Some think she is very sweet, but family know differently. You have to give up the hope for any kind of a normal relationship, and grieve the mother you needed, but never had. As miss suggested, you need to establish and maintain boundaries for your own health. having both parents living with you is a huge burden. I hope you have some regular respite, and get out and do some thhngs for you. Take care

Notlikemom! Perfect.

One day at a time with NPD moms, right? Daily changes in attitude, daily fights, daily insults. No one else sees the mean side except for me and sis, and sis is rarely there, so I get the brunt of the harsh words. She is so sweet to everyone else. I'm getting used to it.

Once in a great while she has a good day. She is thankful and nice, even saying how much she needs me, and what would she do without me, but I know that this is how she keeps me coming back. That's ok, I distance as needed.

I do not live with her yet, she is alone and does everything for herself still....but the dementia is progressing and it won't be long before someone needs to be there full time.

It won't be me! She has great insurance and they will have to kick in to help when the time comes. I will help with doctor appointments and groceries, even cooking, but her aides can do the rest.

Yesterday I was hoping for a pleasant Easter dinner with her, but when I got it all cooked and drove over there she was awful! Started up on me the moment I walked in. "Why do you cook so much food? So you can eat it all? No wonder you are so fat! You need to go on a diet and get rid of that!" Etc etc etc.

I stayed about 15 minutes which was hard to do, then I said mom I am going home to have my dinner, enjoy what I brought you and I got in my van and came home crying, but as the day wore on I relaxed and watched movies and had a peaceful day.

I have to set the time limits when she is in cruelty mode. Today she was super nice. Once again, playing me so I won't walk out on her, after all, I am the only one who has stayed this long.

I will not put up with it though. I know living with her would kill us both, so that will never happen!

Bless you all for being able to do that, I do not know how you can do it.

Thank God for this forum.

Most people can be taught how to treat others, except a Narcissist. They already KNOW how to treat others, and it is not the way we hope it will be.

We tolerate people taking advantage of us and mistreating us until we figure it out that we are the ones who have to stand up for ourselves and learn to say no...and walk away....

Took me years but I have finally arrived.

The guilt you feel from going low/no contact is imaginary guilt that comes from a strange place in our heads where we keep that imaginary parent we always wished we had, that we always wanted to please. That "other mother" who was sweet, kind, caring, loving, understanding, and absolutely a dream to be around. The one with warm loving arms and calming words. The one that was never real in the first place. The only place this other mother lives is in my head.

Dump the guilt. It's a waste of time. You have not abandoned anyone. The crabbing and complaining will always be there. I told my mom one time that when she gets to Heaven, she's going to run Jesus and all the angles out with her constant nitpicking, complaining, and criticism. Nothing has ever been or ever will be good enough for a narcissist. Stop chasing that fox because the hunt never ends.

My amateur opinion also thinks we've been trained/brainwashed into a guilt response over the years, so it happens when it shouldn't, and we believe it as 100% real. It takes personal discipline to stop believing it because they are very good at what they do. No stunt is too ridiculous, no scene too childish or embarassing to pull if there is the tiniest chance they can get their way. No bridge too far, so to speak. No lie too bold, no story too improbable if it will help them get their way, and the consequences for us don't matter.

Identifying triggers is hard work because they are hard wired into us by this point in life. But it can be done. Every time you start to feel guilty or neglectful, stop and write it down. Then ask yourself why you feel this way. Write down what you think you ought to do to get rid of these feelings. Look at that statement very critically, and ask if this answer comes from you or does it really come from that stand-in voice the Narcissistic parent installed in us (the N-other Mother!) ?

If my preschooler throws a giant tantrum in a restaurant over candy, I don't feel guilty not letting him have candy. It would irresponsible of me to let him have his way. If my mother throws the same giant tantrum because I didn't read her mind, drop my plans, and take her shopping for things she doesn't need, why should I feel guilt? It's the same thing.

Part of my own growth this past year has been to realize that I am not a ventriloquist's dummy, and that mom's hand is not going to control me anymore. She has had some spectacular fireworks over this change, and I am surprised she didn't give herself a stroke over it yet, just to teach me a lesson. The part I am still working on is not letting her control my feelings. It's not easy, and I think it's something I will always be working on, but if I can a little bit better each time, that's something. I'll take progress!

Bravo, Sandwich42! I REALLY needed to hear this today! Thank you! Hugs!

MizVic - "It's not me" is right. I put my mom in a senior continuum care facility so that when she needs to up her services and transition to another level of care, there won't be another big move. I am lucky to have this kind of thing available. My goal for her was to be safe and that's it. Not entertained, not happy, not content. Just safe. And she is safe. She could be so much more, but it's her choice not to be. I did her one big move last year, and that's the only one I'm willing to do.

I won't volunteer to cook or clean either. Living with me - tried that for less than 4 weeks while her apartment was being prepped, and it was a horror show nightmare. Never again.

I tried bringing her over a portion of our Sunday dinner once (that's the day I get to cook "for real",) and she acted like I handed her a tray of manure. It was fantastic slow-cooked pot roast, potatos, carrots, onions and a container of green bean casserole. My teenagers had almost eaten it all up, and I should have let them. The time I brought a box of KFC, it went over well. Whatever.

We have to recognize we are in a no-win game, and rewrite the rules of this game to take ourselves out of play.

No, you can't live with us. You need more care than we can provide (a polite way to say that wild horses could not put you in my quiet, safe home where people are nice to me.).

No, I won't come over to cook you breakfast or lunch or dinner. You have a dining room just steps away and a fridge full of food.
It's too darn bad that what you want isn't among any of that. The rest of us have to eat what we have, so you can too. Or hire a personal chef. I don't care.

No, I won't do grocery shopping on demand. It happens on my schedule, or you can get on the shuttle van to the grocery store yourself.

No, I won't come over and wash your dishes because you don't feel like it. You can switch to disposable when all your silverware is dirty.

No, I won't take you out to my husband's family events because you have a history of throwing fits and being rude and ugly to get your way.

No, the grandkids don't want to see you because you're scary and I'm not going to make them.

No, I won't respond to your outlandish childish stunts.

If you have that big heart attack you keep threatening, the IL will call an ambulance for you. Same thing if you have a stroke or whatever other medical emergency you can think of. The nice people at the hospital will step in.

When she starts in over the phone, I just say - depending on my mood - that "it sounds like you're really upset/agitated right now, so I'm going to let you go," and then hang up. Or I might say "I can see you're in a really bad mood and talking isn't going to help. Talk to you later," and then hang up. If I'm really worn out and impatient, I will just say that "I won't be spoken to this way and you know that," and then hang up.

The road to recovery is indeed a long one. It's been three months now since I had a blackout due to stress, changed my phone number, gone low contact and literally went into hiding. I'm gradually starting to feel better - no more shaking and stomach pounding.

It's a lovely day, back door and windows open to air the place out and getting laundry out on the line. My dogs/cats are really enjoying playing and laying in the grass. Went to a nearby tree farm this morning and ordered 30 4' black cedars for a wind break (I live out in the country) and they'll be delivered on Thursday. I have a local helper guy coming to plant them. The shrubs and berry bushes planted last year are just starting to bud, along with a tree in the backyard which will be a mass of white flowers in the next few weeks.

Tomorrow I'll go into town taking my two dogs with me. We'll go to the dog park there for some social time and I'll shop and run errands.

Visit my narc mother? Maybe in week or two or .... I'll avoid it as long as possible and choose a rainy day when I do otherwise she'll expect me to push her wheelchair all around the village while she mutters and I can't hear her. I'm still tired and my nap this afternoon but life feels pretty good today!

There is life after narcissists - you just have to reach out and take your life back, whatever it takes.