When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

Dear Debralee, I think I know how you feel. My mother is alive, though old and fragile and I feel so sorry for her and so sad. It is true she has no close friends because she didn't treat them right and they're avoiding her. It is true it is hard to be old and fragile. Yet, this is what we humans do (if we're lucky to get old): we become fragile, sick, forgetful and all that comes with old age; it is the natural progression and we should accept it for ourselves, our parents, all our loved ones, even our young grand-kids.
Keep in mind that a narcissistic person doesn't see things as 'normal' people do. They live in their own fantasy world and maybe they aren't as unhappy and scared as you think. They are oversensitive to criticism and easily injured; but somehow they are convinced that they are the most wonderful, wise, honest, giving folks alive and that, if they don't have many friends it is because they are envied or because their friends are just ungrateful people.
Dear friend, even if we think that our moms were so unlucky to suffer from this disorder, still we have been even more unlucky to have been raised by them.
It is good to forgive our moms, it is good to accept them they way they are, but it is also good to forgive ourselves, to love ourselves, to protect our mental health and nurture our spirit. It was a sad and difficult thing to be r

I'm sorry I hit the post button! I was writing: it was a sad and difficult thing to be raised by a mo with this disorder; we have scars for life. Now it is the time for you to take care of yourself, to show compassion to you. You deserve it! I'll be thinking of you and I'm sending you my warmest wishes to find peace and happiness.

Rena, you're getting such great advice here. Just one thing from me that might be helpful. I too suffer from guilt due to expectations placed upon me from NM.I also suffer from physical symptoms before, during and after my rare in-person visits. when I'm feeling guilty about something, I ask myself would SHE feel guilty about how she treats me? And the answer is always an emphatic NO. And that seems to give me permission from myself to respond in kind. Basically, she doesn't feel guilt, so I shouldn't either. It's hard, because they have trained us so well to believe that the rules are different for us. But relationships between adults are reciprocal. next time she's being selfish and insensitive with you, remember you have the right to behave the same way with her. Even if you WOULDN'T dish it back to her because you're just not that kind of a person, sometimes just knowing that you could is enough to give you permission to let go of any guilt you might be feeling.as nasty as she is being to you, she's LUCKY that you are spending any time with her whatsoever. And even if you never say that to her, at least say it to yourself, and dump that guilt right back where it belongs. Blessings to you.

Tesoro12, you're absolutely right and thank you for your kind response. I need to remind myself that the reason I'm avoiding to spend more time with my mother is that she treats me the way she does; I need to remind myself that if she could change, I'd spend more time with her. I wish I could have set boundaries earlier when she was younger; maybe her behavior could have changed back then. But I didn't know and it's absolutely not my fault because I was raised to be afraid of her and to please her. As it is now, I try my best to help her from afar by calling her every other day pretty much, I try to encourage her when she has problems, help her financially, I buy things for her (like clothes etc.) because it is hard for her to go shopping, and, in general, I try to make the phone calls pleasant and fun for her; as the live-in helper tells me, my mom looks forward to my phone calls.

I also need to remind myself that if she made even a small gesture to approach my husband and mend her relationship with him, he would be there for her. I've read that narcissists are behaving like very young children; if so, don't they need guidance? Should I suggest to my mother to write a note to my husband telling him that she understands that she has done this and that bad things, to write she's sorry, and she wishes to see him? Or should I not interfere? I know it hurts her feelings that he's not speaking to her for the past two years. I also know that this might be best for my husband's well being, I mean to not have any contact with her. Yet, my mom is so old. Blessings to you too.

Rena a narcissist will never change no matter what you do.

Rena, most likely your mom will not think she's done anything wrong regarding your husband. But that it's his fault. These parents don't take responsibility for their part in family disputes or estrangements. I've had a number of heart to heart talks with my mom over the years about her behavior, the way she's treated family and friends. She's never once said she was sorry. It was always some excuse or how it was their fault. Even if you'd set boundaries years ago, you would have been the one doing the changing, not your mom. Ashlynn's is right...your mom won't change, probably because she sees no reason to. I suggest that you leave things be with your husband and your mom.

Ashlynn and Linda, thank you so much for responding. I needed this and it is so helpful. And you are so right.
Yes, I have had several times discussed with my mother (and brother) "heart to heart" about their behavior too. Most of the time, they never did this or said that, or it was not their fault; one time after my brother had an enormous and scary narc rage during which he spoke badly of my husband (who wasn't even present), then he proceeded to cry like a baby and say he was sorry in general. Of course there were hugs and kisses as I was leaving for the airport. And last year after my mother exploded on me over the phone and said terrible things, I stopped calling her for a week or so. She called and left me a message that she is sorry for whatever she has done that upset me. Of course, I called her back even though I know this was not a real apology.
As several of you, dear blog friends, have advised, it is best to leave my husband and adult children out of this and let them decide on their own how to act without interfering. It means a lot when advice comes from people who have been through similar circumstances and I so appreciate being part of this blog. What a Godsend! Blessings to all adult kids of narcs.

Rena, my husband stopped visiting my parents, but was saintfully supportive of my need to do so. He hated how it affected me (he called my post-visit states “mini breakdowns”), but he knew that I would probably have had a full breakdown and lose my job trying to cope with total estrangement given my ties (I am 2nd generation and the rest of the FOG-ed thing). Luckily, he helped me move thousands of miles away. Here’s what I hope is a funny story about my sister’s fairly new boyfriend Bill. We were all sitting dutifully if not squirming for the required three hours at Mom’s dining table, while Mom presided and filled the air with thick smoke. When going “social,” Mom played with people like a cruel cat, always trapping them, then chastising them for their failures big or small, with cutting humor that could always be claimed – “I was just being funny.” Mom was an incredible cook, but her obsession with food is another post. She offered Bill a large platter of different European handmade cookies (works of art that tasted out of this world good, made by Mom). Most people would want to sample a few, as each was exquisitely different. Everyone else At Table had their coffee and multiple petite cookies. Mom watched Bill sideways as he mulled. She gamily asked him, “Which cookie do you want?” (Note she allowed him one). Bill looked her right in the eye and said, “Which cookie do you want me to want?” Bill was a bit psychologically sophisticated. Mom got it, and viciously pursued his separation from my sister, destruction of his memory, and guilting my sister for bringing him to her table -- til her death.

But Bill was one smart cookie.

Dear 50s Child, what a wonderful post! I read it to my husband! Thank you so much! This is amazing! My mother is also obsessed with food and it is torture to sit at her table; she still cooks at 94 because the two 50 year old women who alternate caring for her don't know how to cook (!!!) plus they are not to be trusted with being clean enough for mom!!! She cooks and cooks and cooks. And she's very competitive about cooking! One time I was staying at her place during a visit and she had invited a few of her friends over; she seemed stressed out and was complaining that there is no time to prepare all the food; when I offered my help, she said: "but I am a far better cook than you!" Then she allowed me to help (!), but was very critical of the final product (!)
No matter how much you eat of the enormous variety and amount of food she has prepared, she isn't satisfied and she asks why didn't you like her cooking! As for me, usually I'm ridiculed about being overweight (even when I wasn't really) and then I'm told: "don't start your diet here! only when you visit me, you remember your diet!" Then dinner begins!
What a "funny" story about Bill. Did your mother managed to separate them? You mentioned your mini-breakdowns; I'm the same. And you too were geographically far away from your mother as I am. (it takes 2 plane rides!) How often did you visit your mom? Both her and my brother are giving me a hard time because I'll only stay a week. That said, they were never happy even when I used to stay with my (babies, then children, then teens) kids for 2-3 months every summer and after she had spent 5-6 months at my home!!! I remember one time after she had visited for 6 months, I went to stay with her for 2 months at the end of which it was time for goodbys. She was so miserable and was crying all the time. My brother came over (he lived with his wife and 3 kids near my mother) and tried to console her. He said:"Why are you so upset? She stayed for two months and two months from now you are going to go stay with her again for half a year!" And she replied: "oh, lucky me! I'll be the babysitter, as usual!!!"

50schild, Rena -- our moms sound so much alike! My mother was also a very good cook, and the dynamic w/food and weight is a whole huge other thing that I usually find too overwhelming to even get into. And when she hosted, oh God, it was excruciating to be there.
Loved the story about the boyfriend! It sounds like he eventually did leave. It's wonderful when someone isn't taken in by the manipulation.

Warning: Long with paragraphs. Rena, are you a twin? I will answer your questions in this forum because I get the eerie feeling there are a lot of twins here, and I gasp each time I recognize myself in their sharing. So hopefully my little details might resonate somewhere. I’m going to try to paragraph (someone suggested that, and l appreciate it, I thought you were supposed to not paragraph).

Answering your first question about how often I visited. It changed. When I first moved 70 miles away from my hometown and even though I was a full-time student with a full-time job, the punishment of not visiting once a week just drained me so I gave in and did. But less and less, until Mom one day phoned and said she would disinherit me and adopt “appreciative girls from Asia.” I was devastated. I tried to reach my Dad, but he was terrorized by Mom and wouldn’t talk to me. My husband saw me through quite a breakdown. I had no contact with my parents for a year. It was incredibly painful. Dad never tried calling me. The next paragraph describes why I resumed contact.

After finishing school, I was able to get a good job 1500 miles away. Mom sent me a chatty letter one day, punctuated with a brief one sentence that “we lost your brother.” Turns out, she had set her gun sights on him, and without invitation “dropped in” on him who had also moved quite a distance with his wife and had successfully stopped drinking for a full year. One day with Mom and Dan started non-stop binge drinking, in a suicidal rage drove his car into a pole, burst his already delicate liver and died (Dan and I had already had a bit of psychotherapy and knew something was really wrong but couldn’t quite grasp the extent of it). So Mom in her chatty letter about travel, restaurants and neighbors (never acknowledging the one-year estrangement) embeds this one sentence “lost your brother” in a ridiculously lightweight letter after a year of shunning me. Mom angrily had fled Dan’s home and took refuge at sister’s home, and sis urges Mom to write to me. Sis phones me to say Dan’s wife pleads with Mom to retrieve Dan’s body, as she was Chinese and apparently had cultural taboos against dealing with a dead body and going up against MIL. Mom had threatened Chinese wife that Mom would “get her” because Chinese wife had Dan kidnapped and murdered by the Chinese mafia. Yes, I know this sounds psychotic, but in context nobody raised an eyebrow because Mom’s world was Our World. Dan’s Chinese wife then tells me that Mom got into terrible goading fights with Dan, provoking him. Mom finally left in a huff because Chinese wife stood up to Mom (protectively). Mom hauled Dad from Dan’s, and told Dan and Chinese wife -- “see who comes to your funerals.” My sister and Dan’s wife were pleading with me to help. Nobody was identifying Dan’s body nor dealing with it. I was only about 150 miles away from Dan’s crematorium, so of course I picked up the pieces. By the way and strangely, in Dan’s cheapo crematorium box, he WAS SMILING BIG without any body preparation at all. One of his eyes even winked at me.

Then I moved over 2000 miles away. For 20 years I visited two weeks, twice a year. I did so because though I knew how bad it was, I was trying to salvage something, hoping, trying to prove to Mom and Dad, trying to prove to neighbors (very old fashioned, close-knit immigrant neighborhood), that I was a good person. Heck, probably trying to convince my own self of that as Mom would continuously harp how selfish I was. A few times when Mom would stick her knives in me at the door before I even entered, I would just leave. It so painful because Dad always looked so confused and hurt by my leaving. Eventually I just played along with, “Yea Mom, I am a really horrible person.” As Mom got weaker and weaker, I moved back to 150 miles away (my husband insisted no closer). My husband was right. I can’t say MY methods for visitations were right, especially for my own and my husband’s peace. But there is so much duty and what I hope is compassion in me, I cannot walk away. The compassion part is the tricky part.

My husband’s biggest regret of his life is that he didn’t insist I permanently sever. Yet neither of us knew the extent of it, and how slow psychic death is much more painful than a quick one. The Death (psychic severing) has to be dealt with, sooner or later. How each of us manages to do so can always be questioned. For myself right now, I don’t have to live with what to me was intolerable guilt (because of my feeble Dad, who like sis and bro we all siblings surviving the warfare together). I became very good at acting, and splitting off my many personas, and keeping really really busy with career stuff. I never had kids, Rena, so give yourself a whole lot of credit for all that you are negotiating with and letting sun shine through regardless.

Once Mom died, and I hired two shifts of caretakers, my sister and I visited Dad each every two weeks (I now live 150 miles away, sis 300 miles away). We both couldn’t keep that up. Now maybe I get to Dad’s once a month. Still feel guilty, but call him a lot. Then again, he isn’t BDP and though he has Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus (93), with some dementia-like memory problems and repetitiveness, I like to believe we are sharing something we never could. Am I?

I apologize for the length of this. It seems like floodgates opening. Thank you for allowing this.

Dear 50schild, it looks like we are twins. Your story is amazing and I can so well feel for you and relate. I'm so sorry about your brother. How sad. My story is in essence similar, as far as the abuse from mother goes; I'm so happy you and your sister are on the same page and that you have the chance to have a relationship with your dad. And you do, even if he's old and forgetful. He knows what is happening and he knows you're there for him. My dad was terrified by mother too and this didn't help out as I was growing up. He was a wonderful, sweet, nurturing, generous person who didn't know what was happening. He died from a sudden heart attack when he was only 56 and I was 19. Also, he came from a time and a culture that divorce was totally unthinkable and out of the question. I feel so sorry for him. We had a special relationship and we had our moments as father/daughter that I will cherish forever. I only have one brother, a bit older than me who was the golden child, though he and mother were always at each others throats and had epic fights. My brother ended up becoming very much like my mother and they still are fighting and raging and then kissing and hugging. Crazy making relationship for a mother and her son.
Thank you for sharing how often you visited your mom; it helps give me much needed perspective. My husband too regrets that he was way to patient with mother and he didn't sever his ties with her earlier.
I appreciate your input and thank you so much

Dear looloo, isn't it something with the food and the looks? My mother always compared her looks to my looks; she was thin, with perfect features, and a skin of porcelain; and I was fat, with a terribly huge forehead and fat cheeks, and as for my skin ... Of course it didn't matter to her that when she was telling me all this I was only 13 and full of acne!

Yes, it is awesome when someone escapes a relationship with a narcissist! Hugs!

Rena58 -- my mother is a 'cerebral narcissist.' She's all about her superior intelligence (cough, cough), and how her looks aren't important. She was a compulsive over-eater and blamed her weight gain/inability to lose weight on her pregnancy back in 1967 (so, that'd be my fault, I guess?). When I was about 7 or so, I wrote in my diary that I thought she was fat. She went into my room, took my diary and read it. And has NEVER forgiven ME for writing that (she brought it up again just a few years ago). I felt horrible my entire childhood, until it dawned on me one day that maybe SHE could have apologized to ME for violating my privacy! I never understood why, for many mothers, yes, that might have hurt, but would have been forgiven, and maybe would have ended up being constructive and motivating.
It was just within the past 5 years or so that her appetite diminished, and overeating was no longer an issue. I'm not exaggerating when I say that the last time she exercised was when she was in labor w/me 47 years ago.
I was a healthy weight in childhood and teen years, but in young adulthood my eating habits were terrible and I gained weight. I think my mother was glad to have that in common w/me, and was disappointed when I made those changes and got healthy again -- it reflected badly on her.
She would creep me out by looking at my body, and I'd usually hide under baggier clothes. Once, in my late 20's, I met my parents for lunch, and wore regular fitting clothes-jeans, tennis shoes, and a short-sleeved blouse. Didn't show any skin, unless you count my arms??? My mother said I looked like a prostitute.
I was always amazed that my friends could change clothes in front of their moms and vice versa, and no one was uncomfortable. I could never do that.
Such WEIRDNESS.

looloo, wow! Such weirdness, indeed. My mother was and still is obsessed with looks. So many times she has put down my looks either directly or pretending someone else said something about me(!!!) like your sister-in-law said that was a very fattening outfit Rena was wearing etc. A little girl writing in her journal that mom is fat is not such a big faux pas! Goodness! She sounds so much like my mother. I've been so afraid of her so I avoid criticism at all costs, but even tiny things I've said my mother remembers and brings them up all the time.

it's interesting what you say about your mother not wanting you to be fit or that she criticized your jeans outfit! I have had so many occasions where my mother showed extreme envy towards me. She still does. And my brother is the same. Pathologically envious of others, even family.

It is so hard to find subjects to talk about - unless it's about them of course. My mother has told me that my brother is upset with me when I relate to her something sad, especially about health issues (even if it is about people she doesn't know!) My sister-in-law told me to never tell mother any good news about my family because she brags so much she makes her kids feel like ...failures. My mother told me to never say anything sad to my brother! Recently, my brother is going through an ugly divorce (he left his wife for a younger woman!); so, I was on the phone with mother and she asked me about my weekend plans and I said that we have invited two couples over for dinner. She told me that she's not going to mention this (!!!) to my poor brother lest he feels jealous since now his family is in turmoil and they don't have friends over to dinner!!! So, I'm boxed. Can't talk about anything.

Changing clothes in front of your mom? LOL! I can't even let her see my underwear!!! One time recently -without me asking of course - she started folding my laundry and she made such bad remarks and putdowns about my underwear, I made sure she hasn't touched it ever again.

I had such a poor image of myself as a young person. I've always told my kids that I was overweight because this is what I thought I was. A few years ago they looked at some old pictures of me in my 20s and couldn't believe it. I was actually a bit underweight, but when I looked at myself in the mirror I saw a very overweight person (I figured out much later that I had bulimia).

It never ends; does your mother make up stories about what you did or said that are total lies? Mine does. It's good to write about these things and get them out. It helps our healing.

Geez Louise! You ARE boxed in with what you can and cannot talk about! When my parents had moved away, back around 2000, they were in relatively good health still. They NEVER called me, so I would call maybe every 3 weeks, just to be a 'good daughter' -- because I wouldn't want to be the 'daughter that never calls, lol. I'd write down a few talking points/discussion topics beforehand. These would usually include a cooking question for my mother (so she'd be flattered that I was asking for her expert advice), a political question for my dad (so he'd have the opportunity to rant), and I'd tell them that things were fine on my end (I was in a really bad marriage that I eventually ended after 9 years).
Kudos to you for realizing your self image wasn't real at all, and for overcoming bulimia!
I only recently realized the unbelievable level of envy my mother has for others. And the corresponding pity she has for herself. Oh, brother.
My mother doesn't make up anything elaborate, but she has always said things to me that I would take as fact -- about my supposed temperament as a child, my supposed attitudes, my supposed behavior. I should have always taken those stories with a huge grain of salt, but I took them as gospel for way too long.
With others, she will tell them positive things about me (that may or may not be true!) if she feels like bragging at that moment. If she feels like getting sympathy, then she'll tell them stories about how I neglect her, how I never call, how she misses me so much but I never visit, bla bla bla....

We've found that the best thing to do is to keep conversations very superficial with little real information that can be spun to others. My mother rearranges things into her own idea of reality. She can be miserable at a gathering but by the next day, she's telling relatives what a wonderful event it was. The way my mom deals with the jealousy is to never give a word of praise for anything my sister and I have done. If she can't take credit for it, it gets ignored. The jealousy about appearance manifests itself in demands for the same makeup, shampoo, clothing that we wear. We're three different body types and skin types so this doesn't work so well. If I'm dressed up, she doesn't say "you look nice". She says, "I like that jacket...I need some new clothes like that". Convos about changing one's clothing, makeup etc as we age falls on deaf ears. And because she's so touchy about any criticism, she assumes everyone else is too. So when my cousins (adults) made fun of me being skinny (at that touchy age of early teen), she didn't say anything because "she didn't want to make an issue of it and hurt their feelings. Just let it go - they love you - they're just kidding." Took me well into late 20's to be ok with being slender. I can't even fathom you all having your mom telling you you're fat. But we're healing, little by little. And weirdly, we're better moms for it because we figure out what we needed our mom to do and that's what we do for our kids. I call it "anti- mothering".

looloo and Linda,
Our mothers are so similar! I too write down a small plan every time I call my mother!!! And a cooking question is always there! My mother (and brother) makes elaborate lies and up until I discovered NPD (2.5 years ago at age 55!!!) I believed her. Her lies were about other people; but now she's making up stories about me as well.
The envy is really scary, isn't it? And she does badmouth me and my husband and adult kids to other relatives and our old friends. Linda, my mother would react the same if someone teased me when I was a kid! Even if I came home and complained about a bully at school who treated me badly, she'd always take their side even if she'd never met them! She is envious of other people, but she always had a special envy towards me. Anti-mothering? LOL. Yes, we're healing and it helps so much to tell our story to people with similar experiences. It is hard for others with a normal childhood to understand. Hugs to all!

Hi all...well Mia for a bit - lots has happened - but first I just want to say I am so jealous that your moms were great cooks! Lol! My mother was terrible and thought she was great! I have 4 kids - 3 boys. When we would go over for dinner there would be JUST enough food...maybe and one roll per person! I finally got smart and fed my kids before we went over!

I have heard that many narcs are obsessed with their looks - that is the one thing that baffles me about my mom. Her hair cut was like a Dutch boy, she wore the same type clothes - flowered shirt and pull on pants and thought she was adorable. She was also about 40 pounds overweight. I have curly hair - she always said I looked like a cocker spaniel and hated it when I wore it down. I still am uncomfortable about wearing it down. I would work in my kids classes and run and eat well and she would constantly put me down...why do you do all that work- they don't care - and why do you jog - it is bad for your knees (which they are fine). I also like to dress nice - even that is criticized. I guess no matter what - we just can't win. I have to say my mother as frumpy as she looked and as inactive and a terrible cook - she had/has a pretty healthy self esteem! Lol

So since I last wrote - I had my oldest son take off for Alaska to get on a cod fishing boat...and my brother asked me for $17000 from the trust so his wife can finish law school - finally saw her after 3 years - and my daughter (36) told me I was the "worst grandmother ever" and I was too busy spending grandmas money. It's all a really long story...but in a nutshell my mother, brother and daughter are all alcoholics and never take responsibility for their actions. My daughter is mad because I won't let her live in my mothers house and that I am the trustee (not a gift) of my parent trust. She also lives 15 minutes from my mother and does nothing and never visits. I live 3 hours away and was going ever 3 weeks. She was drunk when she said that and I hung up and haven't talked to her since. My brother hasn't called about the money - probably because I said I had to clear it with the attorney - and my mother is strangely quiet - no emails in a week. Needless to say....I called my councilor again.

Sad1daughter, about 25 years ago a counselor told me my family was a "circus", and not the good kind. That says it all. A Circus is a corporate gathering of very strange and stimulating things, that take one away from the mundane of life. I wonder if BPD and NPD people need that drama. Also they need a scapegoat. Your stepping up to it is the highest conscience a human being can have. But they are manipulating you to feel guilty. Guilty for their alcoholism and displeasure with life. Take a minute to find your balance and pleasure in that madness. I insist (as a surrogate you might need). There is nothing wrong to take 5 minutes to consider that challenge. My sister who has IBS, severe anxiety, depression, whatever -- her counselor told her to look out the window 5 minutes and breath, then report back what she felt. Please give yourself 5 minutes in this decade. I'd love to hear what happens if you can do that. I know it isn't easy, but try it. I am trying it too.

Thanks 50's child - my daughter has had issues for a long time and goes to a councilor that is not helping her! She is really good at twisting truths and is very manipulative. I have let lots of things slide and now think that has been a mistake. A neighbor told me about a book I should read about how before we are born we meet with our angel and decide what we need to work on. I sent her a text the other day asking for the name as I think my angel is messing with me! My husband always says I am too nice and have my rose colored glasses on all the time...countering all the toxic people! I'll tell you - my 3 boys have never given me as much trouble as she has...all put together! I think for me the most disturbing is as crappy as my mother has been to me my whole life - I have never said anything like that to her! You are right about the circus and taking time...actually right now - she is dead to me - ie I just don't want to talk to her or see her for a while-

I found this therapist on You Tube the other day. His name is Dr. George Simon, and his website is manipulative-people.
He believes that those of us who are taken advantage of/victimized/abused tend to spend too much energy on mustering up compassion for these people.
It was empowering and vindicating for me to read his articles and hear his presentations. It allowed me to take a little break from trying to feel badly for these "poor, sad souls" who know not what they do (or some such nonsense).

Well, well anonymus. After chiding me for labeling my mom a narcissist without being a trained psychiatrist, you proceed to have a long, bifurcated bunch of posts culminating in an extensive one indicating you seem to be going through some family h*ll yourself. this is regrettable. You labeled one as 'selfish'. This indicates you have sufficient experience and comparison to be able to come to the conclusion that this individual was 'selfish'. I do not think I need to have a degree to be able to compare experiences with another person who is dealing with a genuine bonafide narc to my own mom and realize 'h*ll, she is narcissistic... maybe worse/not as bad as x,y,or z but nevertheless, exhibited these traits.'
I hope all is well with you. My experience with 'family' is that it is primarily crap, but then that is colored by my own past and it DEFINATELY is not all inclusive of other folk. Many people have wonderful family; they should consider themselves lucky. VERY lucky.
For those who wrote in support, I thank you very kindly.

two cents ¢¢

I read all that anonymous drama...and doesn't seem like there haven't been any new ones. Odd that someone a little judgmental would even go to a site like this....I was happy to see all the support from everyone. Clearly Anonymous isn't a trustee or POA!

Looloo - thank you for the link on manipulation! My daughter absolutely! Funny - today a client of mine - who I am adopting she is such a sweetie - told me about a personality test she had taken - thought I might also and mine sure enough came up as the type that "needs to be needed". Yep...that's me. I fall prey to all these tweaked people just to be needed...ugh. Need to stop is what I need to do!

Arghhhhhh, today I need to vent. I have set big boundaries with my mother. The next step would be disassociation. Yesterday I called to check on her because she hurt her arm. Same old crap, won't go to the doctor, has 4 million excuses. I listen and nod, as usual.

We somehow got on the subject of her sister's son. He sent himself to college, a major university. Graduated in engineering. Very nice guy. I told her how hard engineering is (my husband works In that field) and how you have to be really good math student. She then tells me, "well he is not as smart as his brother". Now that was news to me since the brother never showed any particular intellect ever. I said " how is that?" And she says, "well he can just figure things out in his head like me and daddy". What? Neither my grandfather nor my mom had any exceptional intellect nor education. I said, "mom I didn't know you were good in math" and she says, "I sure am".

I just didn't know what to say. Why was she being so hostile to me and what makes her think because she made A's in 6th grade math she is a math wiz? She is so self absorbed. And she never had to be disciplined as a child and her dad told her she was pretty all of the time and she knows more than anyone at any time. I could go on and on.

I haven't been to visit her in three years or maybe longer. I have to keep my distance. But the last two times I have talked to her she seems hostile. It is just under the surface ready to jump on me. I guess disassociation may be the next step with this woman.

Oo, Palmtrees, that must have been so bloody aggravating. She was disagreeing with you for the sheer merry h*ll of it. Sod it. It makes you not want to bother having a conversation with her at all, doesn't it?

In all innocence I once stamped heavily on my narc. MIL's toes - we were talking about my daughters' schooling, and she assumed, no question, that we'd be sending them to her old school. Without engaging my brain first I said we felt they needed somewhere more academic - oh boy! Me and my big mouth! Out came all the old girls' newsletters for the preceding decade for me to put in my pipe and smoke, and as I meekly read them I realised that I had been most unfair: as many as 25% of the leavers had indeed gone on to university… Fortunately her school was also extremely expensive and my ex-husband had his priorities straight.

I hadn't intended to insult her, I was genuinely sorry to have done that. But as you say, I just hadn't realised she considered herself an intellectual. Just think: if we were the mischievous types we would have such a brilliant button to press there :)

sad1daughter, I believe the need to be needed and to solve everyone's problems is a trademark of having being raised as the scapegoat of a narcissistic mother. This is how I am too (I'm trying to change and have partially succeeded). This unfortunate trait has made me an overprotective mother with all the negative consequences for my children. They had to go through a lot of extra trouble to become independent adults.

palmtrees1 my mother becomes disagreeable and ready to fight too just out of the blue. When she used to visit us and live with us for long periods of time, I knew right away each morning, if it was going to be "one of those days". There was something in her eyes and a weird, sadistic, half-smile and I knew I was in for a bad day. Another of her favorite games (and my brother's) is to "innocently" badmouth anything my husband/children do; maybe your mother insulted engineering because your husband is an engineer and she wanted to put you down a notch. It is typical, sick narcissistic envy.