I took over her bills about 2 years ago after bills not being paid and things gettings turned off. I got a POA and had her bills sent to my home. I am on the checking account and pay her bills thru the bank. She is going out almost everyday and shopping and buying stuff she doesn't need. I can follow her by her debit card. She spends well over her income and the savings has rapidly gone down. She couldn't even pay property taxes with out using the credit card. I gave her a budget and she just went to the bank and got more money out of saving, or charged it on a credit card. I took away her debit card and checks and credit card and gave her cash to use for a month. She went to the bank and got more checks and ordered a new debit card. I don't know what to do, she is almost broke. I need help!
Have the bank create a two signature procedure, thus if your Mom goes to the bank to get more cash, she would also need your signature to do that. Lower the limits on the debit and credit card.
She went thru it in a week and then went to the bank and got more and went thru it in 4 days. Now she is broke and has 4-5 day till a payday. She called to ask if I knew where her checks were, I said you don't have any money so take something back that you bought last week. I send her her bank statement and weekly spending log every week. I know she will have to move here at some point but won't even talk about it now. I'm going to start looking for some one to come in and help her with things. I just don't know where to turn or who to get involved.
Thanks
There must be some way(s) to keep her from doing this. She must be a beginning stages if she is getting to the bank and getting more money to blow.
Your mom must be still driving, since your profile said you live far away and she’s getting to the bank somehow. So, the driving issue is probably something to start questioning, if these banking issues are happening. That’s another big issue and it’s not easy! Best of luck.
As POA you are entitled to do for your mom what she wants, but cannot go against her wishes. You may need to get conservatorship.
Good luck.
Lending institutions make money on the 'hidden charges' so they are not going to work with you.
Unless you find some kind of loophole - there is really nothing you can do.
I was Mom's live-in caregiver. I took her to the bank for this new account (so she could open it under her name/SSAN) with me as a lower "owner" so I could control it. I transferred Mom's SS and her deceased husband's pension into it (all of Mom's income). From that new account, I transferred all her auto-pay utility bills including her property taxes and homeowners insurance. I kept meticulous records of every penny.
I kept around $200 in Mom's account that she was familiar with. With her dementia, she forgot about this new main account so she couldn't access it. If Christmas was coming up, I upped the amount in her account. It made her feel powerful to have one of us drive her to the bank (she couldn't remember how to call a cab. *phew*!), hand over her passbook and withdraw money.
Of course, your mom is more mobile and able to get herself to the bank. Do you think your mother is incompetent? Does your POA set the criteria for determining incompetence? If you think she's past the point of competence, then have her declared incompetent (I know, it's hard to cross that line!).
If so, give the bank that document. This should help stop her from opening accounts without your knowledge.
Also, enlist her bank (hopefully, they know her well?) to watch out for her. As a constant customer they should know her. My mom made her way to the bank one day to withdraw funds to send to what the teller knew was a scam. She notified the branch manager who stepped in to stop it.
Learning to be our parents authority figure is brutal, especially when they are not the least bit flexible. From everything that you have shared, your mom should not be living alone. She is a danger to herself and others. Not intentionally, her brain is dying and with that process all of her life skills and even survival skills are dying. That is what you are seeing with her obsessive purchasing, something isn't clicking in her brain and she may or may not even know it. You can't reason with dementia, that seems to be one of the 1st executive functions to go.
Call the local area on aging and ask them for a needs assessment. This will help get things in motion for your mom. If one of you can be there to share all the changes you see it would be helpful.
This resource will direct you to the resources available for mom. Believe me, there are so many resources available that we never even hear about until we are on the dementia train.
I would also talk with her neurologist about what they see and ask them what resources they can share. If you do not have a signed HIPAA can I recommend that you do one that specifically states that it never expires. The ones at the doctors office is only good for 1 year. Get one for all of you guys.
I am going to encourage you to get ready for a ride like no other and none you could have ever imagined. Being prepared for the unknown is going to help you. This disease is a rollercoaster that has no exit until death, it progressively gets worse and just when you think you have it figured out, things change and that is the only true known thing with dementia, constant changes.
You and your siblings will do well to get educated on dementia and Alzheimer's, they are not mutually exclusive in how they affect our loved ones. Just having information will make the trip a little less challenging. Try to find support groups for each of you.
Great big warm hugs! You can do this!
ps: can you check with her bank and credit card to see if they have a double verification process? We do this for online purchases and we have to give a code that comes to our phones or the credit card will not process. Just a thought, I don't know about point of purchase transactions, but worth asking and use your number, then you can deny the transaction.
Dad was still alive and this drove him crazy! He set it up with the FPOA son that he was cosigning any check over a certain amount. They set this up with the bank over 15 years ago. (The cosigner doesn't have to be a family member.)
Sounds like you're caught between a rock and a hard place--the preloaded credit card that you put money on each month is a good idea. That is a 'gift' we know mother loves.
Sounds like you need to be 'boots on the ground' and make some changes in person. If your mom has any level of dementia, you need to check on that in person and facilitate the changes yourself. Doing it 'long distance' is impossible.
You will never be able to totally control her spending--until she cannot drive, it will be a daily problem. And then there's online shopping & catalogs....that's mother's big money problem. Luckily she is still aware of money and how much she has and hasn't got.
Some banks do not accept a POA. I took my POA paperwork and Doctors letters stating she couldn’t manage her money or any financial decisions . Then had her bank limit her spending amount. She was mad and accused everyone of stealing her money.
Be sure to have your mom diagnosed with Dementia or Alzheimers before to try limiting her accounts. It helps.
Let me illustrate. My daughters MIL was regularly visiting her own mother in a retirement village where she was increasingly being monitored as a dementia resident. The MIL visited several times a week, her mother kept saying she had spent all her money so was given more. Amounted to about 50 dollars every visit.
Following her mothers death my daughters MIL had to clear out the flat. She found all sorts of missing items that had supposedly been stolen (according to the mother), like knitting and sewing needles, saucepans and so forth. But no items that could account for all the spent money.
Following my suggestion the MIL found bundles of cash wrapped in plastic hidden inside the toilet cistern, in jars buried in the garden, under carpet and lino that had been carefully pulled up and replaced. It amounted to some 20,000 dollars!
As far as your mothers out of control spending is concerned, all I can say is to approach the bank again and tell them you have POA and they must keep to thevli it you set. Could you have some of the funds tied up in a short term deposit where it is not accessible but still available in the future?
Family member has a terrible time budgeting his cash. He gets paid on Friday and typically it would be gone on Thursday. He was giving me $ to set aside to pay his bills but always needing more cash. We finally changed gears and he now has his check DD into an account I have access to. I withdraw his cash for the week and give him ½ on Friday. He can ask for the rest on Monday not before and if he runs out and needs more that is taken out of his weekend money. He HATES banks so he would rather not deal with one. He is a signer on the account and did have an emergency were he needed extra one week and was able to make the withdrawal while I was away. He has actually been able to now start building a savings and we were able to transfer from that to the account so his bills could still be paid on time.
#2 Then if so, return the items.
#3 Consider items she owns if they can be sold in a variety of ways - Ebay, social media, yard sales, estate sales, etc.
#4 Oftentimes elders DON'T NEED THAT MUCH STUFF!
Tons of clothes never worn, shoes, gadjets. everything but the kitchen sink... Oh Wait a minute.... NO, No kitchen sink / shucks.
Good luck and God bless !
"I live 500 miles away so the two signature thing won;t wok but I will try the other things."
Actually this could work very well. For the most part she doesn't NEED the cash she is withdrawing. If you aren't there to sign, she can't take it out! Until getting a good resolution, this could stop some of the drain. Leave her enough for the debit card (or better a refillable "gift" card) for weekly spending only. So, instead of $300 for 2 weeks, give her $100 or even less for 1 week, then she can't blow it all in a few days. Does she even NEED that much spending money? About all she would really need to buy is groceries/toiletries.
Banks can be notorious for refusing to honor POA documents. Try to work something out with them until a better solution is found. Ask them to NOT reissue a debit card (and take it away again) if you can't move the funds yet. Setting up a sub-account, or better a fiduciary account someone else mentioned, you could transfer funds online from her primary to the other account as soon as it comes in. Not sure how that works, but you could inquire. Set up alerts for the online account so you know when the funds are there and can move them. I did this to ensure large drains didn't happen and after taking over SS, they changed the "pay" date to the 3rd from the 1st, so I had to ensure the funds were there (usually 2 days early for electronic deposit) so her MC fee could be paid on time (due the 1st.) It also makes it easier to monitor - I don't have to log in to check things as much! I only keep what is needed for monthly payments. She no longer has access, but it was fine when she was still living alone - her CC would get her groceries and we had taken the car away, so no real excessive spending at that point. She did all her spending long before the dementia!!! Clothes. Shoes. Handbags. Jewelry. Saved them all as she "kept them nice", but was not using them! Didn't find all this until we started cleaning out the place. UGH! There were multiples of necessities, some of which she did before take over, others because she would put stuff "away", forget she had it and ask for more.
I will post a different solution in a second comment, as I will likely run out of characters if I do it here!
I used my POA to get the account address changed to mine and took the existing checks away. I had forwarded (for about 1.5 months) her mail to get bills, so I could change the billing address to mine and set up payments, etc, but missed the insurance, which is yearly. NOTE TO ALL: federal mail, like SS documents, IRS, will not forward. Most billing didn't even need to see the POA - they don't care where the bills are sent, they only want their money! When she got the insurance bill and couldn't find checks, she called the bank to get checks, but they were sent to me! When she called again later after not getting the checks, they told her the checks were sent to me - funny that I never heard a word from her about that! This would also mean the replacement debit card would be sent to you, not her.
As with others, there are concerns about her driving, if she is. If not, how does she get to the bank and stores? Being far away, this is something you can't monitor, so how does one determine she is beyond capable, hopefully before something bad happens!
If your mother objects to this, and is mentally able to make the decisions, then you honestly have no power, and I don't think I myself would willingly act as POA for bill paying at that point. I do it, and it is an onerous task keeping up with everything and keeping meticulous records, even in a small estate type thing. Good luck.
Unfortunately I have exceeded characters again, so will post the suggestions in a reply to this post.
Please do explore the options I suggest - it will get some or all access of mom's money away from her and you can limit how much she gets. As others noted, sending her statements, asking her to return items or curtail spending isn't going to work. Even in the early stages of dementia short-term memory is shot, so she will forget, probably as soon as she hangs up the phone, if not sooner! Reasoning and managing day to day activities like finances are usually among the first capabilities to go as well. So, basically you won't be able to reason with her or get her to comply.
It will take action on your part, but if you can succeed with these changes, it will eventually make life simpler for you. IF she questions anything, have some excuse ready, blame SS or pensions, the government, saying it is their rules. Hopefully so long as she has access to a little money, this won't be an issue. If/when she runs out and asks for more, simply reply that she has used all her funds and needs to wait for the next paycheck(s).
I would also change her credit card limit - I planned to cover this under xrayjodib's post, but it will fit here! Hopefully you already have or can set up online access to her credit card account. Be sure to have the address changed, and alerts set up before contacting the CC issuer. I was not able to set up and account after sending/accepted as POA for her. Sadly there was an online account my brother set up, but I wasn't aware of it. Trying to make changes required calling from her phone (1.5 hours away!) as it rejected attempts to reset the PW. Turns out part of the problem was it had been a joint account with my dad and rejected because it was HIS b'date listed, not hers! Anyway, they allowed me phone access, I could freeze and cancel the card, but no online access. They wouldn't even agree to set up alerts so I would know when it was used. They DID honor my request to lower her limit, which was ridiculously and dangerously high! Be sure to drop the limit to an amount above what is currently on the card, to avoid overage fees, but as you pay it down, keep reducing the limit until it is a manageable amount (couple hundred?)
Rather than a debit card linked to her account, can you use a refillable card for discretionary spending, but also have a specific grocery store card that can only be used at THAT store for food and incidentals? Limit what the balance is, less than what you are allocating now for 2 weeks, and only refill when you have to/feel it is reasonable.
More to come!
There's no indication what her source(s) of income are, but assume primary is SS. If she has pension, deal with that separately, but is likely doable.
The SS IS something you CAN control. Sign up with SS to become rep payee. I was using my mother's pension/SS deposits to make her payments, but actually SS does NOT approve of this - they consider it illegal as they don't honor POAs. Usually they don't know, so it can "work" but isn't right. I found out when I had to sign up to change the address, as you can't forward federal mail and we were going to sell the condo. She wasn't capable then to make the change.
You should be able to do this at your local SS office. Calling the main SS number will put you on hold for a long time and in the end you will still have to go to the local office to be "interviewed." I had moved over the state line (not 500 miles away, but that should not matter) and used MY local SS office, not hers. I called, they set up an appointment. I did NOT have to bring mom and they never looked at one piece of paper I brought to show I was managing her funds, had POA, etc (federal entities do NOT honor POAs - they have their own forms.) It wouldn't hurt to bring items, such as your POA and a note from the doctor indicating she is cognitively impaired. The bank statements showing she is over-spending might help too. Better to have too much not needed than not enough!
They'll send notice to your mother while application is pending and she *could* contest it. IF she has enough wits about her, she could contact them, but documents might help you. Thankfully when mom's came, she was in MC and staff learned NOT to hand mail to her (they gave her a bill once that slipped through and regretted it!) Once approved, they'll issue 1st payment as a check in YOUR name as rep payee for your mother. When you have an approval letter, open a special rep payee acct (Check your local banks while waiting - go to one that knows how to do this! This was the longest, most difficult part for me as the CU staff were clueless, even with their "cheat sheet"!) Once the acct is set up, deposit the check and call the local office again to have direct deposit made to it. This acct is ONLY accessible by you, should ONLY have SS funds and mom can't touch it! It should be like any other acct where you can set up bill payments. The SS require you file a report at year end, but it can be done online and is fairly simple. Just keep receipts for anything in the event they ever want to see them. Since most is paid with bill payer, statements and bills should be fine.
If she has other source(s) of income, you'll have to explore how you can "take over" or redirect her deposits to another acct (NOT to the SS acct - that is only for SS funds.) Mom's pension was dad's federal pension, which as noted doesn't honor POAs. THAT took more effort than the SS takeover! They needed specific wording from her doctor and the one she had at the time promised but never delivered (despite 9 months of pestering the office!) and the one we switched to due to moving her closer to me had to issue several letters to get it "right." Thankfully they allowed her deposits to continue to the regular acct and appointed me rep payee, allowed me to make changes and changed the mailing address to mine. So far they have not asked for any accounting, but they can.
In our case, I use ALL the SS/pension funds to cover part of her MC fee, making reporting simple! The balance of the fee and other necessities/expenses come from the trust fund we set up to protect her assets from her. For that, accounting would only be to my brothers, but they have access to the trust, never say anything and don't really do anything to help, so if they have questions later, too bad, so sad, you had access and could have asked. I keep tight control over what goes in/out, bare minimum, so they should have no beef, but I'm ready for any crap they give me!