Anyone have experience with reverse mortgage and letter of competency?

The physiciatrist saw my mom today & says she has depression that why she’s anxious a lot & gets panicky so he’s prescribing Lexipro.
I am not hopeful that my mom will take it since she’s always been against drugs & the few times she DID actually take anything (other then a Valium, which she asked for), she always said she “doesn’t feel right” and wouldn’t take anymore.
I told this to the nurse (she called me to get my consent as POA) & she said if my mom takes it & doesn’t want to continue, then they’d try to find something else for her.
I have a strong feeling she’s not going to take it because she thinks that’s what they do to most people in nursing homes is feed them drugs to keep them like zombies.

“HolidayEnd
about 3 hours ago
You are ready then, if you were told to have those things. It’ll go well. Good luck.

I didn’t know you’ve gotten problems on the paperwork. That’s so true, call the agency in question and they’ll explain a lot to you. “

I’m sorry but this is confusing to me..
What is it you’re referring to?

You are ready then, if you were told to have those things. It’ll go well. Good luck.

I didn’t know you’ve gotten problems on the paperwork. That’s so true, call the agency in question and they’ll explain a lot to you. We’ve all been lost as to what to do. It’s a learning process.

Hangingon, who did your POA document? Call them and ask what you do about the competency issue.

When your mother asks "why are they keeping me here?" quote verbatim what it says on her rehab admission form. Don't elaborate, except to state that until those issues are out of the way this is where she needs to be.

"Am I going to die here?" - you can truthfully say "I hope not, but we need you to have good nursing care, that's why you're here."

And ask questions. Is there anything she would like? Is there anyone she'd like to speak to? Is there anything you can do for her?

If the response to question 3 is a pitiful "yes, take me home!" give her a hug in response.

You don't have to agree with a person to be kind to her, you know.

You also don't have to take this full-time. When your strength begins to give out, take a break.

Hanging; I want to second what PolarBear says; I would call them therapeutic fibs.

Your mom has chosen not to treat a cancer that she was made aware of...but she won't (if I remember correctly) consider Hospice or palliative care.

Your mom seems to be in deep denial about her condition and has been for quite some time. This is very sad and puts you in a very hard place.

Just remember, it's NOT YOUR FAULT.

You've probably been trained to be truthful to your mom. It's very hard when we have to lie to our parents, because it goes against a lifetime of training. But you probably need to do it.

You also need to get some help for yourself. Is there a social worker or chaplain at the hospital you can talk to? Has anyone raised the idea of Hospice care, which would give you additional social support?

Hangingon-

You will have to lie to your mom. There is no other way. Here are my suggested answers to your mom's questions.

Mom: “I wanna go home”??
You: I know you do, and I do, too. I want you to go home, too.

Mom: “why are they keeping me here?”.
You: You develop (name some medical conditions she has) and the doctors have to keep you here to treat you.

Mom: “Am I gonna die here?”
You: No mom. You are here to get better.

It is heart breaking to hear those questions and know the real answers, yet have to lie to her. I am so sorry Hangingon.

Hanging, I agree with Polar and Barb, especially after reading your response. I think we all can tell you feel like you’re against a wall with no way out. Do what makes you feel more at peace.

Editing to answer your question, which I hadn’t seen about what to say to your mom;  take things one day at a time. If she asks you can say they need to keep her because it’s not safe for her health to go back home yet. You can keep answering the same until you are ready to say something different. Talk to the appropriate people in the hospital -find the appropriate people-and get help from them. I’m sure they’ve experience with elders that reject the idea of not going back home. Plus, since you’ve to give your mom bad news, remember you’re at least in the right place because she can be taken care of immediately.

I want to mention too that I’m very glad that although you might not even realize it, you’ve moved miles away from the annoyance it caused you to get your mom’s phone calls every other minute, cleaning her commode, etc..to caring about her wellbeing, worrying about not upsetting her and making sure she is safe and at peace. 

In the middle of all you’re going through, give yourself an opportunity to realize that things have changed for better in very important ways, which I know it’s very hard for you to perceive now, but there is light in the middle of the darkness!

All I can do, is pray, and I will, for you and for your mom. Wish you the best possible outcome.

What do you say to your mom when she starts crying & says “I wanna go home”??
My mom constantly asks me “why are they keeping me here?”.
“Am I gonna die here?”
What do I say back???

Hanging, I'm sorry if my answer caused you stress. It seemed to me that you and mom could call RM company, discuss that you could draw RM monies to pay her bills while she's in rehab, and to get with an eldercare attorney to sort the rest out.

Once you have an attorney for mom, s/he would deal with and about getting letter of incompetence. I was thinking of this as a two part process. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

But as others have suggested, you could just walk away from the whole house debacle and focus on mom.

Hangingon -

The house and the RM are a major source of stress for you. Just walk away and don't tell your mom anything you don't think she can handle. Let the bank take over and deal with it. They can sell it and pay themselves back. If they sell it for more than the loan and fees, they will send your mother the balance. Others here can advise you on what to do with that money if and when it comes.

In the meantime, take what you can, and sell the rest. There are people who will come and buy everything for one low price. You will not get as much money but you save a lot of time and stress.

Take care of yourself. Try to not worry.

Rosses003 I’ll try to answer your questions here.

A. Yes, I am my mom’s POA. I have the document, made a copy & had to submit to the NH when she was being admitted for rehab.

B. NH will NOT give me a doctors letter saying anything.
They said “we don’t do that”. The ONLY letter they would give would be a note on their letterhead that states they are in compliance w/MEDICAID, and taking my mom’s SS income every month as her payment for being there, she gets to keep $30 a month as her own.

C. No I can’t collect unemployment because I’m self employed.

E. I’m not sure how long the RM gives for the loan to be paid back, some say 3 months, others say 1 year. I have the agreement but it doesn’t specify that anywhere, or I’m just  to damn tired or stupid to re read it.

My mom’s ONLY income is/was her Social Security & her SSI.
Which she no longer gets because she’s in the NH.
So they stop the SSI, & take all but $30 of her SS EVERY MONTH.
So when her bills come due this month, her phone, the electric, the gas, homeowners insurance, etc there will be no money in her account to pay them..
Eventually they will just cut off the electric & water, the homeowners insurance  gets auto deducted from my mom’s checking, she set that up years ago but when they deduct it on the 25th, it’s not gonna go thru.
It’s gonna be NSF then wtf will happen??
I’ll have to call them & tell them to cancel the policy???
They might say we can’t deal with you, YOUR MOM has to authorize that..
It’s just one thing after another..
I’m so damn tired of all this.

“BarbBrooklyn
2 days ago
So, tell us why you can't, as poa, draw money from the RM to go to an Eldercare attorney to get this sorted? Thats what im not understanding, Hanging. “.

I have the document from my mom’s will that says I’m her POA, but that’s not enough for the RM people.
They said my mom didn’t put me on as POA when she signed on the loan in 1998 so in order for them to deal w/me they said they need those 4 things I posted earlier (copy of my driver’s license, letter from a doctor saying my mom’s not able to make decisions, etc) but since the NH WILL NOT provide a doctors letter I can’t get one.
So no go w/the RM.
On top of that, if the only other option w/the RM is for them to speak directly to my mom, & she would verbally give me as POA, then I’d have to tell her what’s going on w/having to sell her house & that’s something I’m trying to AVOID because she is NOT going to take that well at all.
I don’t care if you all think I “shouldn’t worry about what COULD happen”, I don’t want anymore guilt in dealing w/this whole thing & if my mom should die (sooner) from having a stroke or heart attack or whatever the HELL could kill her from hearing she’s not gonna have a home to go back to, I CANT DEAL WITH THAT.

Hi Hangingon,

I agree with Rosses003 and polarbear -- I think it's a good idea to take a step back for a little bit and just take a breather.

It is so hard to absorb information coming from all directions, esp. when you are super stressed. It's also really hard to make good decisions for yourself when you have that much anxiety and are exhausted. Try to get yourself calmed down to the point where you can take a step back and think about things without sending yourself into panic-mode.

A book that might help is "Hope and Help for Your Nerves" by Dr. Claire Weeks. It's an older book but I believe it's still in print. It's low-key, easy to read, and I've found it helpful in the past. There are a ton of good books on managing anxiety and also CDs you can get from the library (or even youtube videos) for relaxation. Hopefully the weather is getting better to get outside and get a little fresh air. Those things will not fix your problems but they might allow you to catch your breath and give you a little space to prioritize what you can deal with.

There are people who post regularly on here who have big families, financial security, and much more run-of-the-mill problems and they still freak out. My grandpa was poor but he did not have the health issues your mom has and was relatively easy-going, but it was still overwhelming and depressing dealing with issues that arose. Do not feel bad for feeling overwhelmed and having a lot of conflicted feelings. You are handling things a lot better than you think, and have endured more than many of would without having a breakdown. You will be ok, but don't underestimate what you've been through. You've done so much to try to respect your mom's choices while coping with the difficult reality of the situation. That can actually be very traumatic and it does take a lot of introspection and emotional work sometimes to be able to focus on your own priorities and well-being again.

I'm really glad your cousin was there to talk with you and help sort through things! I hope you are doing ok.

Hangingon - I can see you are so overwhelmed with everything.

You do have A LOT on your plate: your mom, RM, legal issues, POA, your job, your health, NH, money, cleaning out the house, selling things. etc. OMG - anyone would be overwhelmed.

Please take a breather. Step back. Everything can wait a while.

First thing first. Your health. Do what you need to do or not do so that you can be calm and yourself again. If you fall sick, then what. I recommend yoga, meditation, walking, sleeping, or listening to music, or anything else that will help you relax.

When you're feeling better, then you can see to your mom's needs. It seems that she can use some (more) meds to calm her down. You know your mom best and you can advocate for her needs.

As for your mom's house, if the value is really less than the amount owed, then it is a moot point to spin your tail and worry yourself sick. That said, I think the rehabbers probably gave you low ball figures. A more reliable source might be a real estate agent. He/she can run some comps (comparable sales) in your neighborhood and can tell you what similiar houses near by are selling for. The agent should not charge for this service. You don't want an appraisal because that would cost money.

One thing at a time. One day at a time. You have a lot of good advice here from everyone. When you're ready, you can reread the posts with a clearer head.

(((Hugs)))

A few questions Hanging:

A- Are you in fact your mother’s POA? I’m asking because I’m not sure.

B- Have you tried again, or better, have you obtained a clear medical statement where it is established that your mom is not able to make her own decisions? Again, this is critical.

C- Have you applied for Unemployment?

D- Have you tried calling the HUD’s housing counselor referral line at (800) 569-4287 or reading information on the HUD's counselor search page. This is free.

E- You’re probably aware that you have 12 months before your mom’s loan becomes due, right? Why are you talking to the lender now? Use all the time you have the right to use!

And have you read the RM document fully and in detail? Use all included in it to your advantage!

F- What are exactly your mom’s sources of income?
If your mom owes credit cards for example, you, as her POA can call the bank and tell them the situation. They will very likely work out a payment plan without interests, as they want to recuperate some money..better than getting nothing. If you’re clear as to what your mom’s income is, you can probably get on an schedule to pay all her debt.

As of housing, right now you have two houses in your hands, your mom’s and yours, and you are not working. Plus I recall you’ve your car payments. I forgot what you said the first time about not being able to leave your home. But I’d be thinking about moving to your mom’s house. You obviously need to cut costs wherever you can.

Lastly, and this is a hard question, do you know what’s your mom’s life expectancy? I know she has cancer. What do doctors say? You need to know this so you can plan better. If you’ve trouble facing the situation now, you’ll have more trouble once you’re facing your mom’s hardest times. So, plan now that your head is clearer.

Every problem has a solution Hanging, every problem does, you know this. Sometimes we are too overwhelmed to see the options, but the options are there. Of course something has to give, figure out what that is.

Take a deep breath, and one day at a time. But remember it is never wise to let life happen to you, seat down, write down all parts of the problem, and focus on finding solutions for each area. You will see how some things start clearing out!

So, tell us why you can't, as poa, draw money from the RM to go to an Eldercare attorney to get this sorted? Thats what im not understanding, Hanging.

" Mom, we need to call the RM company together because I need to consult a lawyer about how to best handle your financials right now". Would that be a problem?

Garden Artist I don’t have any $ to pay an attorney for advise or to tell me what needs to be done.
Don’t have money to pay for my mom to even be cremated let alone pay for her burial in the crypt w/my sister.
I’m selling items for the house to pay my bills. Because  haven’t been able to drive UBER, I’m too damn nervous.

I’ve been getting chest pains this last month & my bp is high.
I visit my mom every other day at the NH & have to lie to her every time when she says “any mail come today?, put this in the freezer, I’ll eat it when I go home”,,
I CANNOT TELL HER SHES NOT GOING HOME WHEN EVERYDAY SHE SAYS “DONT LET ME DIE HERE PLEASE”!!!
I have to step back from all this because I don’t wanna get a heart attack which I can from the stress.

HangingOn, I've just read or skimmed through most of the posts, and I do agree that the underlying legal issues haven't been addressed.

But "giving up" doesn't seem characteristic of your true intents either. You were very concerned, now you're walking away from the situation.

There is a middle course, you know that, don't you? If you're confused by the advice on legal capacity to undertake what you planned, just say so and it will be explained.

No one's trying to unsettle you or frighten you. As I read the posts, they're cautionary. If you proceeded to assume responsibility for taking action on the RM, you would find you didn't have the authority to, and might not be able to reach any agreement. Or, the legal implications might later undo all the planning you've done if authority was lacking. RM people are going to exploit and get what they can, and if you're a casualty b/c you lacked legal authority, they'll exploit it.

Just step back, take a break, and revisit the issue of the legal issues when you feel you're up to it. And ask questions if you don't understand. The advice you've been given is very sensible and cautionary, and those who wrote it are trying to prevent you from getting in a situation in which you have no legal authority to do anything you're contemplating.

I’ve had enough.
I’m not dealing w/the house, the rm co, the bills that are due, my mom’s bank, none of that.
Whatever happens, happens.

She needs to be professionally evaluated as to her competency. Her competency level is not yours to determine. That is is the responsibility of a medical professional.

Hanging,

I understand that when one is overwhelmed sometimes what is said is read differently than what it is intended. What I said is that I truly believe (I know!) you really need to get to a clear determination about your mom’s ability to make decisions, and not as in your assumption, but as in a medical statement.

I said that “if you tell any competent person that you are selling their house, doing an state sale, etc, that is enough to make someone sick and give the impression you’re talking advantage of her absence”. What that part means, “taking advantage of her absence” is that as you’ve clearly stated that your mom does not want to do anything you are doing for her. So, if you tell her all you are doing, and IF she is competent, she might think you’re taking advantage of her not being there to do what you think is right and not what she wants. That is what taking advantage of her absence meant.

But I fully understand you are trying to protect your mother and I also understand completely it is a giant task for one person and I’m by no means implying that you want to benefit financially through all you’re planning to do and doing. All I’m saying is this: In order to make decisions for a person, you either need to have their permission (POA) or something that declares them not capable of making their own decisions. 

In the other thread you had, if I’m not confused and you are the same person, I was the one that told you that I thought you really needed to take control of your life & of the situation. Maybe sounded harsh, but it was absolutely well intended, and necessary. Well, here I’m again, trying to advise you to take control of the situation, which means, do things in order and follow priorities.

Like Countrymouse said, stop thinking about the ‘what ifs’, and trying to predict things that you don’t know will happen. You actually have available the guidance and help of people that can assist you with the how to tell your mom what is being done problem. Stop wasting time on things that are not as important as to get clarity about your mom’s situation from a practical standpoint. Doing first what needs to be done first, will make the rest of steps simpler and will save you a lot of headache. Hope this makes sense, and I truly hope this process is manageable for you. Take one day at a time Hanging and remember to establish priorities everyday and also (and first) in the big picture.

Hangingon, are you intentionally ignoring the question of your mother's competence?

If your mother is competent, you have to give her the information. She makes the decisions.

If your mother is not competent, you can act for her without her permission and you need share with her only information that you believe she can process easily.

Until you have sorted out this one key point, you cannot make progress on anything.

Stop visualising your mother's reaction, stop imagining the worst, stop reading old newspapers. Get the competence issue determined first. If you don't know how, get advice from your mother's social worker or doctor.

Your fear is indeed very great, and please don't think we don't understand how horrible what you're going through is. What everyone's trying to tell you is that there will be ways forward to the situation you want: your mother's house efficiently cleared, the RM squared away, your mother safe and well cared for, you armed with strategies and support to help you deal with her determination to "go home."

Hanging, I surely feel bad for you, but you don't appear to be taking in what ANYone here is telling you.

No one is accusing you of fraud.

If you are worried about talking to your mother about selling her home, please talk to the medical professionals at the SNF and/or the social worker about the best way to approach this task.

Is it appropriate to look into Hospice at this point? That would provide you with an additional level of support.

Rosses003...said

“Third, if she is competent she needs to decide, with you, to sell her house and what to do with her finances. If you tell any competent person..with dementia but competent, that you’re selling her house, doing an state sale, etc, etc..that’s enough to make someone sick, and to think you’re taking advantage of her absence. Do things right, so you don’t find yourself in deeper problems later on.”

How can I be taking advantage of my mom’s absence by trying to sell her home??

Once I tell the RM co that she’s no longer living in the house they’re gonna call in the loan right??
So her house WILL need to be sold.
I’m not doing anything or taking advantage of anyone.
I’m just trying to avoid having my mom get the stark truth that SHE No LONGER has a home to go back to.
Then going forward, the NH IS her home from now on.
Knowing that, realizing that, after my mom MADE ME PROMISE to never put her in a NH may just about kill her.
Wanting to spare my mom that anguish is NOT doing anything shady or whatever, it’s called protecting her.
Yes, she has dementia.
There are times when what she says makes no sense.
She sees our old dog who died over 40 yes ago walking at the foot of her bed like it’s really there.
Then they’re are times when she is making sense.
She’s goes up & down.
Has crying jags like a toddler when she doesn’t get something she wants, etc.
But all in all she WILL know that the sale of her house is in reality going to be the beginning of the end for her in every way.
Then when she finds out Medicaid has taken her SS every month leaving her w/only $30, that’s another stab in the chest.
I’ve been going thru her bedroom dressers & my God all the stuff she has saved, torn articles from magazines, newspaper clippings, old/paid statements of past bills paid from 1993.
So much crap that I have to read & determine what to keep & what to toss out.
I’ve started in her room last Sunday & it’s now Wed & I’m not even half way done..
I don’t know how long it’s going to take me to go thru the whole house but I’m thinking when I finally do have everything of sentimental value out, then that’s when I will get my courage up to tell her that we have to notify the RM co & they’re  going to say they loan needs to be paid within 2-3 months, I don’t remember what the guy said as far as how long she’ll have to pay it but what’s gonna happen knowing my mother is that when I tell her that, she’s gonna say “why are you telling them that I’m not living there anymore when I’M GOING BACK AS SOON AS I FINISH MY REHAB???

THAT’S gonna be the main question that she’ll want an answer to & the only answer I can give her when she asks that is “no mom, according to the doctor here, you can’t go back home because you’ll be alone & wont have the level of care you need now”...

Oh God I can just see her reaction to that now..

She has asthma & I truly believe it’s gonna trigger her to have an attack.

I know I can’t avoid actually TELLING her what’s going on.. it’s just my fear is so great that when I DO tell her, it’s not going to end well, so I’m hoping to avoid it all together.
I love my mom, even though her being sick and being the only child w/no help having to do everything for her has made me a nervous wreck..
But what’s expected of me in the near future is something I am having extreme difficulty with..
And God forgive me but I would much rather God take her before I have to tell her then having to live w/the idea that I CAUSED her to die because of this whole ordeal..

When property is sold, the RM holder gets paid first as it’s a secured loan.
If the property should actually sell for way beyond the RM loan, fees and whatever other costs RM put atop the loan..... if so and there’s $ back to your mom, the $ is income for the month of closing and then an asset for any months afterwards. If it’s more than 2k, it will take her over LTC Medicaid asset limits and she will have to spend-down the $ on her care before she will be eligible for Medicaid. Which means she first & foremost private pays for her stay at the nursing home.

Only when she has spent down and is “at need” financially again (basically impoverished) will she be re-eligible for Medicaid.

Property sale will be recorded to the penny. State will know exact amount.

To underline what Rosses just said:

If your mother is competent, you CANNOT sell her house without her informed consent. Ask the NH if they can recommend a financial adviser who can go through the paperwork with both of you in a calm, professional way.

If your mother is not competent, you can use your POA to make decisions on her behalf and there will be need to distress her with detailed explanations.

You MUST get this point resolved first.

First, I’m glad the situation changed from what it was before. I understand it’s very stressful but seems more manageable and more reasonable now that she’s not at home and you both aren’t running around an unhealthy circle.

Second, your answer seems to dismiss an important point. Is your mother really unable to make her own decisions? Having dementia does not necessarily equates that. It is crucial to establish that. Save yourself a lot of problems, establish your mom’s competency.

Third, if she is competent she needs to decide, with you, to sell her house and what to do with her finances. If you tell any competent person..with dementia but competent, that you’re selling her house, doing an state sale, etc, etc..that’s enough to make someone sick, and to think you’re taking advantage of her absence. Do things right, so you don’t find yourself in deeper problems later on.

Had 2 different rehabbers come out to give a a buying price on mom’s house & both came way under what is owed, so I’m afraid I’m going to have to walk away & give them the house in lieu of deed (whatever the Hell) that means.
In the meantime my cousin advised me to have an estate sale to get as much $ out of all the stuff my mom has minus any personal things that I’m trying to get together & bring to my apartment.
Thing is I can’t take much cuz I don’t have the room.
Right now all I have been taking are family photos, & momentos.
I’m also hearing from my cousin that my mom will have to sign any papers or documents for this to happen so eventually I’m going to have to tell her what’s going on & the house is being sold.
I pray she doesn’t have a stroke or heart attack right there on the spot when she hears it..
I know my mom pretty well & this might just about kill her.
I’m going to blame the RM co & the nursing home if that happens because they are making it impossible for me to represent my mom in this & im trying to do it so that she doesn’t find out (because of all the stress, I’m almost positive it’s not going to end well).. but the doctor said w/her dementia starting within  a few months, she may not remember too much anyway..this really sucks

Igloo572...
What does that mean (my mom having to “spend down” any money she gets from RM?
How & what does she spend it on?

“ Her income will now be under Medicaid LTC rules. If she should actually get $ from the RM once property sells, it all will become a spend down till she is once again “at need” for Medicaid. “

How are they treating her anxiety, Hanging, which has been over the top for a long time? Have you been told by her doctors not to give her bad or worrying news, that it might exacerbate her condition? Or is this a leftover fear from childhood "don't bother me with the truth, if you do, I might have a heart attack and die and then where would YOU be?"

I know a bit about this sort of manipulation as it was a frequent feature of my childhood, and I suspect, many others. It's a method of controlling children's behavior.

Don't fall for it.

Talk directly to the doctor about whether your mom is incompetent or not. Talk to her/him about how to treat mom's anxiety and other mental illnesses. And about how you can discuss her business affairs with her.

Get a geriatric psychiatrist involved if necessary. Most NH/LTC facilities have someone, if not on staff, then someone who visits frequently.