My boyfriend's Dad keeps opening up atm cards after we've gotten POA and using them while we are at work. Any advice?

Well, Power of Attorney is a pretty complicated concept. Read the document that establishes your BF's POA carefully. There may be some clues in it as to what it actually authorizes.

POA empowers someone to act on behalf of someone else. This can be while the principal can still do it himself but needs/wants a little help. For example, the principal may ask the POA to pay his bills out of his account. That does not mean that the principal can't also pay his own bills when he feels able to. Just that the POA agent has authority to do it.

Or the POA authority may not "kick in" until the principal is incapacitated. That would be spelled out in the document.

If Morris is in early stages of dementia then he is most likely not "incompetent" to make his own decisions. Chase does not have the responsibility or the legal right to monitor his behavior or decisions. If he wants 6 ATM cards, he is as eligible to get them as any other customer. His son cannot keep him from withdrawing and spending his own money. The bank can impose penalties on overdrafts, and otherwise treat Morris as they would any customer.

I understand how confusing this can all be, on top of trying to keep Morris safe while you both work. You could use some guidance! Is there a caregiver's support group you could join? Are there any classes in dementia that you could take?

Did an Elder Law attorney draw up the POA document? Perhaps he or she could refer you to a source of information.

As you know, dementia gets worse over time. You need to plan for when he will not be able to stay home alone all day.

Hugs to you ... this is hard!

OMG, Choeb08,

I am so sorry that you have to experience this. There is nothing like worrying that the alz/dementia patient is going to become a loose cannon financially. I do not have advice (besides talking to your lawyer again), not enough experience, but I can share what happened to me.

In fact, not understanding money was the first clue that here was something terribly wrong with my mother. Little did I know at the time that she had also stopped taking her meds--the rx ran out and she never refilled them. In any case, first, and that was just about 15 months ago, she no longer understood where to get cash. I was shocked. In retrospect, I now realize that she was, at that time, just coasting along on habit and routine but that she had already lost an understanding of most things. Then a few months later, she called the stock broker (thinking that he would send her money from her checking account!!!!!!!) and asked him to cut her a check for $30,000--for spending money. And here is the part where it gets interesting: everyone who spoke to my mom thought she was in her right mind. She sounded perfectly lucid. She told them at the brokerage that I was not giving her any spending money and they believed her. So they actually sold stock and sent her a check for $30K. To add humor to the story, she opened the envelope with the check and then forgot about it. When I came to pay the bills, I found the check, called the broker, explained that my mom had $72K in a non-interest-bearing checking account (the broker actually gasped!), and then I returned the check and they, graciously, put it back into the account and did not charge us any fees.

But that is not the only scary thing that happened with money. At around the same time, my mom asked me to take her to the post office--so I did. At the post office, she started to put a letter into the outgoing mail and said," I am closing my account with the credit union." I snatched the envelope and she started screaming,"It's my money!" I got her out of the P.O., took her home, and sat her down. I did not ask if she had lost her mind--that hadn't occurred to me yet. Here is the thing: both her retirement money from my dad and her SS check are deposited each month automatically into the account that she was about to close. You can imagine what she said when I asked her what her plans were for that money: she had no idea that she even received deposits. What a mess.

Everything happened very quickly after that. She called the Area Agency on Aging and told them that I was a terrible person who wanted her to live in AL. They volunteered to come and evaluate the situation and determined that she needed to be in AL immediately. And that is where she currently resides. Although we had taken her to the doctor frequently for check-ups, she needed a complete work-up in a Senior Behavioral Clinic. She got that and they fine-tuned her meds. She is quite content and has found a group of ladies who like to play bridge. I visit her about every day.

There are lots of other stories, like how she killed her dog, but I will save that for another day. Good luck and a big hug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As poa, your BF, should have the power to close the account and open a new one...in his fathers name of course. and his father will not know about. Your BF could be the only signor on the account. This may have to happen to protect him. this to protect his i

OMGosh you guys, this caught my eye due to an experience yesterday. My Mom asked me to stop by her bank on the way to take her to a department store. Sure, no problem. Once inside she started filling out a deposit slip, although she wanted to make a withdraw. I was minding my own business, then realized what was up. The teller got her the right slip, ...it took her a really long time to fill that out. She got a huge pile of cash, as they counted it out to her she said "wow, look at the big numbers". Hugh? That is funny looking money, she said. (?) On way to car she told me she thought someone had been taking $ out of her account, so she took everything out for the month except the $ for an auto withdraw payment. (That I'm hoping that doesn't "bounce" due to big withdraw). She'd mentioned that in the last months, that she thinks someone is taking money out of her account, she thinks possibly the bank is, but she's got a debit card hooked to it that she uses online, so I'm thinking she's just forgetting her purchases. Then, she forgot where we were headed. I reminded her. Then she wanted me to go the opposite direction of the store, she's lived there for 10 years, should know where the store is. Forgot what she wanted in store, spent a long, long time looking at each item she remembered. Got up to check out, 1/2 checked out, super busy place, then wanted to go to the back of store and look at some groceries that just popped into her head, as if we could just do that midstream, and everyone would wait? Stepdad grocery shops for them, they are super well stocked, they have 5 of everything they need 1 of, but I offered to go look when we were checked out. No, never mind. Out in parking lot, "Hey, want some chicken?" "No, ...do you?" "No, but I want to buy you some chicken." (Hugh?) "No thanks Mom, I don't need any chicken." "But does your husband want some chicken?" (Double Hugh?) Back home, go to drop her off, then she says, "I wonder how much money I have in my checking account?". Yikes! I sense a lot of fun brewing. My stepdad has always kept his own accounts separate, for 30 years that's how they've done things. She doesn't medal with his, he doesn't medal with hers, but I think he's going to need to. She's super secretive about some things, I sense this is going to be a bad deal when Stepdad and myself have to start getting in the middle of some of these things. I hope no one is ripping her off, kind of doubt it, but she'd never figure it out if they were. Darn it. What a balancing act of giving respect and space while taking charge? I'm not looking forward to the coming years at all. Here you want to help them, show them that someone is in their corner, but looks like they may end up seeing you as the opposite?

Been there, done that! In fact, it's almost a given now that we enter our declining years with an armload of drugs and a long list of procedures to keep us from dying before we're fully demented. As a society, we ought to be talking about this more.

My dad completely ran through his lifesavings before any of the other symptoms of his dementia became pronounced enough for us to notice. He now lives on less than $1400 a month without a single cent in savings. He never bought anything extravagant that might call attention to it and he lived very modestly. Most of the money went to the outrageous interest and fees on the dozens of credit cards he'd opened.

We finally took control of his finances, though it's an ongoing battle, and I got him a special card (there are several that are specifically designed for seniors with dementia) which he thinks of as a debit card. I load it weekly with his spending money. When it's gone, it's gone. He can't overdraw it.

You will find no friends at the bank. They refused to cancel his debit card even though I am a co-owner of the account.

One of the other consequences of deregulation (besides the financial meltdown) is the lack of protection for the consumer. In the not too distant past, my father's behaviors would have raised an eyebrow for someone at the bank who would have at least questioned it. Now, even with a few regulations back in place, they just lick their chops at the fees they get to collect as dad slowly loses his remaining grasp on his understanding of money. For example, he was paying a $3 overdraft fee plus a $2 ATM fee each time (at least 3x a week) that he tapped the ATM for $10. That's 50%!! He would have been better off going to a loan shark for the money! When you're making a withdrawal from an account with no money in it, the bank shouldn't be allowed to convert that into a loan without any of the normal protections involved in taking out a loan.

Dad was also allowed to take out a $20,000 unsecured personal load during the time when he had dozens of maxed out credit cards and less than $25,000 in annual income.

Whenever I hear my friends talk about how their parent (in their eighties) still manages all their own finances, I encourage them to sit down and have a serious talk.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. Yesterday, we went and opened a new checking account in his name. We cancelled the Chase account so he will no longer have access to cards. He won't remember we did this though of course. Which worries me because I know when we leave the house he will walk over to Chase to try again. Our next step is to find a caregiver so the two of us can stay working at our jobs. I'm starting to learn that our lives must continue during all this chaos. This is all still so new to me. Thankfully, Mike (my boyfriend) and I will be attending a support group at the end of the month.

When my mother first was having problems handling her money (checkbook not balanced, checks to marginal charities) she agreed to let me handle the checkbook and I left her with a credit card with a $1,000 credit limit. She was still living in an independent living retirement community 100 miles from me, so she needed to be able to make purchases. I made sure that she had "pocket money" each time I visited, which was about three times each month. This worked for a while, until she started giving the card number to phone solicitors. About that same time, she moved to assisted living, so she no longer needed the card.

Chloe, is there a way that you could "step down" his access to money or debit cards? Maybe your bf could open a new checking account to pay his father's bills, and leave just a small amount in the account that dad knows about. Make sure that the account does not have any sort of overdraft protection. That way, dad can only withdraw the amount of money in the account, and bf can add more money as necessary. Inability to handle money and reluctance to give up control is a common theme on this site. Its a fine line between maintaining the elder's dignity and protecting their assets, but there are so many people out there who are more than willing to relieve an elder of his money and sometimes you just have to make some unpopular moves.

AL - Assisted Living

NH - Nursing Home

Chloeb. AL is assisted living. I agree all the abbreviations can be frustrating. Finances was the first clue that I was in big trouble. My Chase bank however was awesome. Hubby would show up demanding to know where his money was. One of the bankers would intercept him when he could, they would sit and have a "visit" and Hubby would forget why he was there. What the bank could do for me was give me a call when he showed up and made transactions. This was a great help.
Only advice for the stage you are in is all the accounts in his name "MUST" be changed to your boyfriends name, such as phone, utilities etc.. Doing this will save you so much grief later on. See an elder attorney if you possibly can, they can keep you legally and financially on the best path.

My suggestion, if there is very little conflict in your home it's best to keep him with you at home where he's happy with his family and bring in someone to assist him. Sounds like he may be far enough along where he needs someone around most of the time while you're at work because he could absolutely get into more trouble, or worst, begin to fall or get injured not being able to discern when he's in dangerous situations. You can look into adult day-care and the senior center if he would benefit and would like going there. My mom was at in independent living facility for seven years that she really liked, but as her dementia progressed and my sister who lived nearby spent less and less time with her...another story, we moved mom to assisted living but it was too late, she hated it and became so depressed after 90 days I moved mom in with me and she flourished again. Sounds like you have been getting good advice, money equals control in life so they often focus on these things as the brain changes. Chase was great with us, there is only so much the bank can do. At first I took mom to the bank with me and I made sure she knew it was her money but I would help her with everything, she knew she still had access to a small amount of money in her account and after a while she shifted into being happy knowing she was safe and loved and being taken care of again instead of worrying about her money and stuff. -Hope this is helpful.