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4.5 years ago my mother wanted to move to our town and we built a house with a space for her. 2.5 years ago she had a medically-aborted stroke, and my family and I have since had to deal with her being violent, screaming at us, lying to us and lying about us. She has positioned us as the enemy. I've spent countless hours trying to find the best way to help her, found ALFs we could tour, and spent nearly a year trying to get her into a highly regarded care memory clinic to be evaluated. She has refused ALF visits and canceled multiple appointments. Instead, she's been relying on advice from questionably-motivated "friends", has removed me as POA, and seems to be changing her will to mostly exclude me (I am her only child). We've discovered from her actions and from her sister's information that my mother is and always has been a pathological liar and a narcissist. I'm not sure any more whether her issues are that or if theres dementia, and now we'll never know. When my health starting being really affected, my therapist recommended and my husband and I made the difficult decision to ask her to find another place to live. We gave her just over 2 months deadline. Now she has come back talking about elder abuse and some benefit she gets when she turns 80 (no clue what that could be), so she says she won't move out until her birthday, which is 4 months away. I didn't want to have to do the formal eviction process, but I threatened that when she said she refused. Spending the lawyer money isn't appealing especially since it may take that 4 months anyway. We never imagined it would go this way, and we really never wanted this, but we can't continue this way for the safety, physical and mental health of us or our children. Any (nice, helpful) thoughts? Advice?

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My heart breaks for you. I know exactly what you are experiencing as I have been in your position with my husband. Your mother is a classic narcissist as I can tell from your description of her. My husband used to smash dishes when I tried to point out his narcissistic behavior to him. Just like you, I had to go to counseling to cope with my husband’s narcissistic behavior. After going to counseling for about four years, I came to the realization that counseling was not helping my situation because I was still living under the same roof as the narcissist. I decided to take control of my life and to be my own advocate, so I stopped going to counseling and I stopped taking the antidepressant medications that the psychiatrist had prescribed and I distanced myself from my husband and that’s when I regained my sanity.

You have done the right thing by removing your mother from your home. In order for you to maintain your sanity, you need to dissociate yourself from this kind of behavior. Do not feel guilty about removing your mother from your house as this is the only way that you will regain your sanity.

I am so happy that you have done what’s right for you and your family. Now it’s time for you and your family to enjoy your peaceful life which you all deserve.
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So sorry for all your family has been through, and also so glad the nightmare seems to be ending. Enjoy the restoration of order and peace in your home. Do something nice for yourself, you deserve it
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So very sorry for your loss NeedHerOut.

Write this down on a 3 x 5 card to remind you:

"We never imagined it would go this way, and we really never wanted this, but we can't continue this way for the safety, physical and mental health of us or our children."
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Point of Contact...
As long as an estranged person has any of their belongings at your home.
Pack it up, put it in a storage unit in her name. Pay the first month, send the key and the bill to cousin's address.
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Wonderful, so happy for you. Now it’s time to plan going forward and strengthen your resolve. That means to decide now not to communicate excessively with her or your cousins. I have a feeling you’re going to start getting phone calls with requests for help. They are going to find out immediately what the true situation is. Make sure everyone knows mom can’t come back. You’re going to repurpose her living quarters. Talk about making it a rental or an art studio or anything else plausible. This doesn’t mean you have to do it, you’re presently only planning. And of course you won’t be going to her new town to help out with anything because once you start that, you’ll never be free of it.

Good luck!
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NeedHerOut Oct 2023
I don't expect to hear much, certainly not from her. My husband texted her after they left to ask about ALL the stuff she left here but no response. I have accepted that contact with my mother is probably done forever. Sad but true.

Yes, I won't be surprised when the cousins start calling, but they won't get any action from me. I told them every awful detail and they chose to enter the ring with her anyway. I feel sorry for them that they didn't believe me. They'll see. She'll put on the act for a while, but it can't last forever.
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Congratulations.

Change the locks as a precaution.
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NeedHerOut Oct 2023
Locks changed!
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Big giant news. The moving truck is here. Apparently my cousins who said it wasn't their problem have done something after all and she's told others she is moving to their town. Thank you to all of you for your kindness and good advice. I know you've helped me tremendously to get to this point.
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MeDolly Oct 2023
Wonderful! May she enjoy her new life...and you...yours!
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Here's a nice article on Flying Monkeys:

https://medium.com/little-red-survivor/three-ways-to-disable-flying-monkeys-5a3d7ba3e000#:~:text=Don't%20let%20it.,refuse%20to%20play%20their%20games.

This one is a bit more technical, but divides the two main types of "flying monkeys".

https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/types-of-flying-monkeys/?amp=1
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I totally agree with Beatty.

As long as your mom is competent, she is her OWN responsibility.

If she needs a place to live, you are happy to help her find one and have offered that, but she has rejected your assistance.

Your cousin is now what is known in the world of narcissists as a "flying monkey"--well-meaning people who take your mom's word as truth and try to guilt you into fulfilling the narc's wishes

Be aware of that. It seems to be working at making you feel guilty.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Barb you are awesome. Thank you so much for the "flying monkeys" term. She has a lot of those. Guess that appropriately makes her the wicked witch! Hahaha
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You know, I've heard this many times now.

An elder turns away from their own children, then looks to nieces/nephews next. (Cousin #1, then cousin #2 & so on..)

Reasons exist why things broke down with their own kids.

Maybe their kids were drug dependant, mentally ill, live in far flung places..? Full of bad intentions. It can happen.

Or, the kids have had a total gut full of an entitled, stubborn, unreasonable tyrant who expects obedience & servitude. THIS is what I have seen, over & over.

"My son/daughter won't do what I want them to do so I'm appointing a new POA".

OK.

My own LO was clear about no longer wanting me involved as I was not willing to be at beck & call, 7 days a week. OK. So be it.

So, to the oldest cousin (OC) the latest 'Chosen One'.

"between you and your mom." She said "Honestly none of this is our responsibility. It's yours." 

Well now... It WAS. But no longer.

Mom wanted to revoke the OP's POA - she has that right - so the responsibility lies with MOM as she is presumed competent.

Chosen Cousin can CHOOSE to be involved, or not. Jump in to be the new Helper for an Aunt, or not.
(My take would be, so be it).

It IS of course upsetting, sad, invokes grief at what could have been. Myself I have sought professional advice, legal, social worker & councelling. And it is far from over.. train still on the tracks for now.

Please pay no attention to anyone that focuses on the past, letting Mom move in etc. Who knew? Who has a crytal ball? Anyone?

The past is the past.
Today, you are dealing with the version of your parent you have today.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Thanks for this response. I'm going to look back on it frequently when my confidence wanes. I did respond to OC similar to the suggestion and didn't hear anything more. Funny how as more time passes my confidence declines - weird math, that.

"Reasons exist why things broke down..." Oh, yeah. My hubs and I were tallying up all the people in my mom's life who have walked away - her husband, her closest friend, many other friends and now her daughter. I hung on longer than others, probably because it was hard for me to see her for what she was.

Love this, I "have had a total gut full of an entitled, stubborn, unreasonable tyrant who expects obedience & servitude." I might need to get that engraved on a name tag.:)
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Need more advice please. I am an only child, as I said. Mom's sister has 3 children starting a year or so younger than me. Oldest Cousin (OC) was always held up to me as the perfect daughter and was who mom wrote down on note to be POA now that I'm not. I talked to OC over the weekend and she seemed to be lining up facts to work with mom. Now today, when I contacted OC, she said she and her brothers were going to discuss options with my mom, but this whole thing was "between you and your mom." She said "Honestly none of this is our responsibility. It's yours." She's right about it not being their responsibility but I'm not taking it back either. My defenses feel weak. What do I say? How can I strengthen my fragile defenses?
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sp196902 Sep 2023
Translation Oldest Cousin doesn't want to deal with her and after talking to her other brothers was snapped into reality about taking responsibility for your mother whom you describe as "my family and I have since had to deal with her being violent, screaming at us, lying to us and lying about us."

You can't blame her. Once they move into your house these types of elders are harder to remove than a tick on a dog.

You are going to have to formally evict her. I see below you have started and filed the paperwork. Where she goes from there is your mother's decision once she is served the notice to vacate your property.

Yes even though your mother is a nasty piece of work you might start to feel guilty and feel bad about evicting her. Especially if she is behaving herself and not acting out.

My suggestion is to write down the reasons you want your mother out of your house and keep reading those reasons over and over, every time your resolve to do this waivers in any way.

This is why 99% of the time people on this board warn others not to move in with their elderly parents or move them into their house. The smart ones heed the warnings. Those that don't and decide to do it anyway come back later and as how to get said parent the hell out of their house.
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I see that reasonable discussions on moving went nowhere. Also tried to tour ALs without sucess.

I can see why legal advice & a legal pathway has been chosen.

Yet I'm still stuck on Mom's health status I suppose.. history of stroke?

There is a wide grey area between ok & not ok. Between 'presumed to have capacity' and being declared 'unable to make decisions for self'.

What to do in this grey area? This is the big problem.

I see you have tried for evaluation too.

I think I'd be carefully looking at harm or potential harm, even self-neglect. So if there are any of: threats of violence, objects thrown, neglect of personal hygiene, not taking medications, not eating properly. Could a local mental health help line advise if this would qualify for a forced mental health assessment ('Baker Act')?

I've been close to this for my LO, but home health aides for personal care & housekeeping were accepted. If not, self-neglect & squalor would have ensured & been reportable. With home help, everything now works well.

Is that another avenue? Getting more help in your home? Or are you done & want separatation? (Gosh I would).
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
I'm for sure done. Perhaps to some it sounds cold, but I'm so grateful for those on this forum who hear my point of view, relate to it and support me through it.

If any of the times we confronted her about telling everyone terrible untrue things about us, for example, had resulted in any change in that behavior, I might have believed there was something to salvage. She didn't, and I don't.

I believe she deserves the best care and I hope someone can convince her to get it, but I just can't do it anymore.
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Update on the eviction process. I enlisted help from a relative who is a retired lawyer. I really just needed someone to tell me what to expect and to watch out for.

At least in SC, I've technically already started the process by giving her the letter with a date to be out. The day after that date, I would go to the Magistrate Court to file. She is served within 30 days then has 10 days to respond. If she doesn't, we're done. If she responds, we go to court, which is the question mark as far as time. That's the point where I would need a lawyer's help. No idea which way she'll go. I'd love to think she would just go, but her recent history shows otherwise.

Seems there's nothing I can do but wait at the moment. Gotta say, waiting is not my best thing.
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Are the lawyers you are calling landlord/tenant lawyers?


https://www.rentecdirect.com/blog/should-i-evict-a-family-member/
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APS isn't interested in the folks who are scamming her?

I'd call again. I would call every day, actually.
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Does the state she is in have a program where nursing home type services could be provided in a "new" private home for her?
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BurntCaregiver Sep 2023
@Cover

All states have homecare agencies. Insurance is what determines what services get provided in a private home.
Actual nurses can be hired in a private home if the patient is wealthy and they can pay for it.

The nursing home racket would never allow homecare to go too far because it would put them put of business.
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Call the APS abuse #. That's who you want to talk to.

"I need to talk to you about the fact that my mom, who lives with us, is threatening to report us for abuse

My mom had a stroke and she is refusing recommended medical care. She threatens us and throws household objects. She has withdrawn my POA and seems to be accepting advice from someone who is financially scamming her. What can we do?"
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Wow again. Awesome. I will do exactly that in the morning.
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Don’t even tell her you are doing it. Next time she starts screaming just dial 911 so her screams can be recorded. Then tell them you have a mental health emergency and your mother needs to be admitted for an evaluation.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Thats exactly how I will do it if I get any opportunity. Trust me.
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First of all, you do not ask her to leave. You tell her she's moving out of your house.
If she refuses to go you have a sheriff serve her with eviction papers to vacate your house. The time for 'nice, helpful' thoughts and advice are over.
She has no respect for you and treats you like garbage.

Kick her the hell out.

I would call each and every one of these questionably-motivated "friends" and tell them to come and tell them plainly they can come and get her if they know better than you.
Also that if they don't stop slandering you to your mother and 'advising' her with their ignorant nonsense which makes your life harder, you will pack up her things and dump them off on their front lawn along with mom.

Don't let people treat you like this family or not.

You do not have to hire a lawyer to do an eviction. ALl you have to do is go fill out the papers at the courthouse then pay a sheriff to serve your mother with the eviction notice. Do it now because in some states you can't evict in the winter months.

In the meantime while she's still with you I say give it to her as good as you get it.

Hon, I was a caregiver for 25 years and own my own agency now. I was also one to my mother who is the reigning queen of trouble-making, instigating, bullying, gaslighting, entitiled, abusive elders.
So your story really speaks to me.

If she wants to start up a cute little game of false elder abuse accusations, I'll tell you how to play it.

Get her to a hospital ER any way you can. If you have to call the police and an ambulance and tell them she's out of control and is threatening self-harm do that.
Then ask at the hospital for a 'Social Admit'. That you cannot provide care for her anymore and refuse to take her back to your house.

The hospital will find her a place.

Checkmate.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
This sounds alot like my internal dialog, but I don't want to do or say things that will come back on my family or make it worse. Trying to be smart.

I DID tell her to leave. Didn't ask. On the advice of many posters before you, I'm working on starting the legal eviction process as we speak. Maybe I don't strictly need a lawyer, but I want to do it right and protect us.

My mention of "nice, helpful" was about answers from this group. Vast majority have been. I just didn't want to have a bunch of people telling me how we should have done the past differently. I'm well aware and feeling much to emotionally fragile for that.

I promise, if she gives us any reason, I'm calling 911 immediately.
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"Yes I have called her out on it, many times. She just shrugs it off or makes some excuse. She's been doing this all her life so she's quite an expert."

Have you read anything about F.O.G., ie, Fear Obligation and Guilt?

I can't imagine why, if she's always been this way, you imagined that taking her into your home was a good idea.

It sounds like she's snowed you your entire life.

Think seriously about calling both APS and AAA today

And 911 when she acts out.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Nailed it. Yes, she has snowed me all my life. We were so close, just the two of us since I'm 13. My husband even considered her a mother after both his parents passed.
Ive been playing phone tag with the Agency on Aging person today. I can't figure out how to get APS. They only seem to have a number to report abuse.
Ive been turned down by one lawyer I contacted. Waiting for a reply from two others.
We know that she's had a 22 min call with a real estate lawyer today, who is apparently a recommendation from her questionable friend and the one who planted the idea of elder abuse with her.
Im much more stressed today than I have been for some reason.
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Call 911psychiatric emergency. Once in the hospital you can refuse to take her home and ask social worker to find placement.
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anonymous1732518 Sep 2023
If her state has a program, she could be placed in a home with services similar to a nursing home.
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I would also be in touch with your local Area Agency on Aging:

https://www.scacog.org/aging-services

Consider calling Adult Protective Services and explain to them what's going on and the fact that your mother is going to be in need of housing due to her violent outbursts in your home. And that she has revoked your POA and assigned it to someone who may be scamming her out of her funds.

It will be much better for them to hear the facts from you before they get a call from her or her new POA, claiming that you are abusing her.
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Not Medicaid. Medicare Advantage, as opposed to straight Medicare.

Go to the "caregiving topics" section on this site and read up on Medicare parts A and B (and the supplement plans, often called Medical be that you can buy) and Medicare Advantage, which limits your choice of doctors.

Community Medicaid is medical insurance for folks who are relatively low income; Long Term Care Medicaid (what pays for Nursing Home Care and sometimes Assisted Living) has different qualifications. There are perfectly legal ways around the income caps on LTC Medicaid. Very State dependent.

Curious, have you called your mother out on her slander? Told her to cut it out? And that you will happily find her a new place to live?

Elder Law: https://www.agingcare.com/articles/how-to-select-an-elder-law-attorney-198738.htm

These are the NELF folks in your state:

https://nelf.org/search/search.asp?txt_state=South+Carolina
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Thanks Barb! Really appreciate your time. Not one of those NELF folks are on this side of the state, dang it.

Yes I have called her out on it, many times. She just shrugs it off or makes some excuse. She's been doing this all her life so she's quite an expert.
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You mention children. Are your children minors? If so, it's time to put your children first and report your mother for being a threat to your children's welfare and safety. Can you really afford to have her living with your children for another 4 months? Anytime minor children are involved, police take things seriously. Police may call an ambulance to take her to the hospital where she will become someone else's problem.
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Sendhelp Sep 2023
Profile states:
"Married with two young adult children currently living at home. "
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Sending you encouragement to reach out to legal representation today.

Who is mom giving money to? Is she being scammed by folks who may be "advising" her?

In addition to all else we've advised, I would send a short summary of the personality changes you've seen in your mom to her doctor.

Send it cerified, return receipt. You state that you understand that the doctor can't give you any information, but that you feel obliged to share that your mother's well-being is being endangered by unknown strangers and her own poor judgement.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
I wish I felt a letter to the doctor would help. I really liked her when I went with mom to a few visits, and she did the tiny memory test at my request, but then when I asked her for a referral to the geriatrics/memory care, she refused. Everyone I tell that to is shocked and says they've never heard of a doctor refusing to give a referral when asked by someone's poa. The person living with her is certainly going to know more about what she's like than a doctor who sees her a few minutes twice a year.
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Wow - this is one ugly situation. It seems to me that your mother's brain was damaged from her stroke. It does not seem like she is competent. I would use a theraputic lie to get her to the doctor for an evaluation of her cognitive abilities. I don't know if eviction is the proper route with her not really being "all there". I would call 911 and get her to the ER when she goes off again. Meet her there and tell the staff what's going on and what you want tested, etc. OR maybe better to just call because you do NOT want to take her home again.

So sorry for all this crazy in your life and your home. Ugh.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Thanks for the sympathy. I tried lots of tricks to get her to the doctors and she just kept canceling. So afraid of what they might find, I guess.

I'm not saying she doesn't need or deserve care, I just can't be the one trying to wrestle her into it anymore. I will have to leave that to her new POA. She is toxic to my family and it's time to focus on our well-being.
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NeedHerOut

I too want to encourage you to see an attorney if only for a one hour consultation to see if you need to protect yourself from your mothers anger that may be under the manipulation of a “friend”.

Even though you are late learning of life long issues with your mom and feel you now know the worst, don’t underestimate the influence of scammers and grifters to educate and influence their targets on how to thwart your efforts to have her move. Things you may have never considered or mom may have never considered can be in the works. Does mom use the internet, have a smart phone?

Regarding the POA revocation, does that sound like something she would have come up with on her own? Did she share with you that she had revoked your POA? I know you saw a copy in her doctors notes, but did she independently let you know?

You asked her to leave with a 2 month notice. When was this? Did you see the photo of the POA revocation before or after the 2 month notice? Just wondered if she did that in retaliation?

She wants you to wait four more months and you seem to think it will take four months to evict her, so if she doesn’t move in four months when she turns 80, that could extend her residency for eight months. Perhaps I missed something.

Does your mom drive? Cook? Take meals with your family? Do her own shopping? Pay her own bills? Take care of her space, do her own laundry? Change her sheets, run the vacuum? Have a housekeeper? Does she contribute anything to the household expenses? if she is fully capable of taking care of herself, it looks like a routine eviction process but if she should injure herself in your home she could make your life more miserable than it is now. Does she drink? Take many medications?

I wouldn’t be comfortable not knowing what she is intimating will happen in four months and letting her call the shots.

She is not herself and doesn’t acknowledge that she has a problem. In fact seems very frightened to explore the possibility. So if you are to believe she is well, then there is no explaining her behavior. She has removed you from any position to manage her affairs should she have an accident or severe health condition. The current arrangement doesn’t work for you.
I’m sorry but I can’t see anyway around the law assisting you if she refuses to leave on her own.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
Whew, I think you covered it all. Answers:
She has a smartphone and access to the internet but seriously not much clue how to use either. She only knows how to click on a link someone sends so she'd be prime target for scam.
She did the revocation in July, at least that's when doc visit was. She did not tell me and still hasn't. I gave her the deadline letter on Monday. It may have been spite or retaliation, but not for that.
Im not sure about your math. We asked her to move out by November 15, she wants January 23.
She drives locally, shops for and prepares her own food, cleans her apartment (less well than used to be her standard) and washes. She pays the few bills she has - car insurance, medical stuff and credit card she shops with. We pay everything else. She was contributing money toward the monthly bills, but then she just stopped in January with no discussion or explanation.
She manages her own meds, hopefully anyway. Guess thats not my problem anymore. She does drink A LOT, and she hides the wine bottles in our shared trash before pickup. My aunt even commented on how much and how early she drank when on a long weekend with them (after I begged them to take her and give me a break).
Yeah, this magic thing when she turns 80 iishighly suspect. Seems like something she maybe half heard or something. The responses from this group have convinced me that we can't trust her on that.
I love this - if you are to believe she is well, then there is no explaining her behavior. She is so afraid to be evaluated that she wants us to believe she's fine. So if she's fine, she doesn't need to be taken care of and can go live somewhere else. Thanks for proving our case mom!

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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You need an elder lawyer right now. This is so complicated. Are you sure your aunt is telling the truth about your mom? Is there anyone else to back up what Aunt is telling you? I only ask because of you not ever seeing that behavior before the stroke. Who has POA? With dementia she may have made up the story that she changed it. If no one has it, maybe she'll give it back to you when in a nice mood. She needs some medical help and I suppose the only way to get that is to call 911 and have her taken to the hospital the next time she flips out. Perhaps have that planned for the future crisis that is sure to come, but after you see the lawyer. And keep the dog safe, please.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
My father backed it up 100%. Known her since high school. He never told me because he didn't want to drive a wedge between me and mom since we were so close. Now that is actual love, especially as I went along not liking him because of what she said about him. Way to rock my world to the core!
I have a pic of the POA revocation form she completed, and notes about who she wants it to be, but no idea if she's actually done that part.
Thanks for the dog concerns. She's an old lady too so I don't think she would hesitate to bite her. :)
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I so hope she did not pay anything towards building of your house, like paying anything towards her area. This may effect her getting Medicaid but looks like your close to the 5 years. There is no discount at 80 that I know of. Did you get a letter from a lawyer that your POA has been revolked?

Next time she gets violent in any way, call the police. Tell them she needs to be taken to ER and evaluated because you feel she had become a threat to you and yours. When u get a call from the hospital SW give her the info she needs to get Mom care. Then tell her you can no longer have her in your home. That your therapist has told you she needs to go. If you really have no POA, tell the Social Worker that. You may want the State to take over her care. They will find a place faster than u will and appropriate help.

If there is no money, she will not be placed in an AL unless ur State pays for it. An AL is also not obliged to take her if there are mental problems and violence involved.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
She paid to have closets added in her room and for a refrigerator. That's it.
I think she makes too much for medicaid, but she doesn't have alot of savings, since shes been giving it away to near strangers..
There was nothing from a lawyer about the POA, but apparently there doesn't have to be. I have a photo of the form she completed and her doctor's notes mention that she presented the revocation form. Hoping that shows clear intent.
And don't worry, I will not hesitate to call 911 to get her out at any more violence. Just wish I had known that before. One of many things I wish I had known...
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My advice would be to start - AND FINISH - the eviction process, even if she moves out before it's completed. DO NOT change any locks until she has been formally evicted, or until you get the advice of a ***knowledgeable*** attorney with experience in tenant/landlord disputes.

In many jurisdictions it is ILLEGAL for a landlord to change locks on a tenant. And a tenant is considered anyone who maintains residency for XXX period of time - in NY that's 30 days - even IF they don't pay rent, even IF they're problem tenants who trash the place, even IF - etc. For example, in NY it is a class A misdemeanor to "unlawfully evict" - and that means, among other things, changing locks - which is punishable up to 1 year in jail plus fines. And this is enforceable EVEN IF you allow the tenant access back into the residence. In other words, tenant moves back in, and you go off to jail. This is why many short-term SRO's only allow a residence to stay in one room for 29 days before moving them to another room, so the tenant can't claim residency.

Make very, very certain that you protect yourself from this.

Even if mom moves out, she can come back and call 911 and claim you locked her out. And if she can prove residency - such as mail coming to the house - it's going to be you in trouble, not her.
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NeedHerOut Sep 2023
I really appreciate your perspective and candor. Points I hadn't considered. Will ask the questions to make sure we're protected.
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