We cared for my MIL for two years in our home as well as helping her and my FIL for the previous 10 years. That included medical appointments, hair appointments, funerals, grocery shopping, yard work, etc. My SIL did what she could which was about 20 % of their needs. My BIL did practically nothing.
My MIL helped buy the house she lived in with us. She paid for the materials to finish the basement (her apartment) and my husband gave his labor for free. This is his career but he didn't collect a paycheck for two months while he was finishing the basement for her. In the end, it cost her less to live with us than to live independently or in AL.
They have both passed away and my husband was the executor for them. While the financial side of their estate was simple, it took many, many hours to deal with the possessions. Again, the siblings did almost nothing compared to the hours that my husband and (mainly) I put in to dealing with the stuff.
My husband was/is hesitant to take his executor's fee. He had a meeting with his siblings and they didn't know that he is legally entitled to a percentage of the estate. He fought for some of the fee (about 60% of what he legally could collect).
The siblings are not happy...SIL thinks "This isn't the way family treats family." As the one who provided most of their care, who couldn't work full time and contribute to my retirement and who spent way more than the executor's fee putting gas in the car to haul them around, I think it is more than fair for us to receive that money.
My MIL would have had almost nothing left if she had been in AL for the two years that she lived with us. Our time/effort/money are what is allowing my husband's siblings to inherit at all.
What are your thoughts on us taking a percentage of the executor's fee?
It is a lot of work to be an executor and that is why the law allows a fee. If it was simple it would not get compensated.
I always wonder why people think it is okay for family to provide free services when they would never consider having a stranger do the same thing for free.
I truly hope this will not create a break in the family.
SIL is not even entitled to inherit a penny, not her mom, not her inheritance. Just like it wasn't your mom and you should have never had to provide free caregiving, you should have had a contract and got paid every week or so.
Just to clarify, SIL is my husband's sister so she is blood related and entitled to inherit.
I also hope that this won't create a break between my husband and his sister. But, to be honest, not taking the money would create a rift between my husband and me. I would have felt like he didn't respect my contribution to his parents.
My mom is relatively healthy now but will be needing more and more help as she ages. Because I am the closest, most of her care will fall to me. I will definitely be sure to protect myself more financially when her care costs me like my in-laws care did. Hearing people's stories on here about the havoc that caregiving has caused them helps me understand that it's OK to look out for my needs also.
You should find out the hourly rate for an executor in your state (like if an attorney was the executor) and then write out an itemized bill for every hour he’s spent, form he’s filled out and present it to his siblings. Maybe they will change their attitude after that? I would also calculate what an assisted living for 2 years would have cost her and show them how much you saved by taking her in. Where I live, AL for years costs a minimum of $120,000! $5k a month minimum.
I come at this from from a different perspective. I was the executor dealing with my brothers and our mothers estate.
In Oregon the executor fee is a percentage of the estate. The percentage gets smaller as the estates get bigger. I suppose it’s to keep the fee amount reasonable.
My situation was much as you've described - although my mother was always in a facility. We started with mom and dad in a large IL apartment and after he passed mom moved to a smaller IL then AL and finally a nursing home. I looked after them/her for over six years. It was very, very difficult. My mother was a hard person to deal with in her best years. As she aged and later with dementia- she was a nightmare. A super high-maintenance nightmare.
I did 96% of the work - including DPOA. The driving, the appointments, meetings, errands, shopping etc. One brother did nothing except helped with moving - cause he wanted to get his hands on stuff. The other brother helped by visiting. Visiting once a month for the first five years and then once a week when mom was in a nursing home.
Okay. So finally - I was the executor for both my parents. My fathers left everything to my mother and their was no probate since her name was on almost everything. I did have to do all the leg work and paperwork getting things into her name only, taxes etc.
My mothers estate was the full blown probate thing - that I had an attorney help with. It lasted eight months although two years after - a tax issue came up that took another nine months to correct.
I chose to take no fee or payment. And in Oregon- the executor fee is automatically awarded by the probate judge unless you file a motion to not receive the fee. Which I did. Why? One simple reason. To keep the peace between my brothers and me. One brother would have been okay with it - the other would have absolutely come unglued. And, even though I knew that after mom was gone and I handed them their inheritance checks - there would be little to no future contact - and there hasn’t been, I still chose to go this way.
Of note - I could have been paid for years for my DPOA work as well. Mom had it written into the document. But again, I chose not to take it - for the same reason.
To keep the peace. It just wouldn’t have been worth it.
As the Personal Representative (Executor) , I had to:
1. Get a copy of the will and file it with the County Probate Court.
2. Notify banks, credit card companies, and government agencies (Social Security Administration was notified by the mortuary) of the decedent’s death. I sent out 10 Certified Death Certificates.
3. Decide what kind of probate is necessary.
4. Represent the estate in Probate Court.
5. Set up a separate bank account for incoming funds (I had to sell the corn and soybeans after harvest) and pay any on-going bills such as utilities, farm related bills, etc. I had to contact all of the insurance companies and see if they needed to refund any premiums. At least three insurance companies refunded premiums. I had to pay all court costs and pay for required notifications in the local newspaper from the Estate Checking Account.
6. File an inventory of the estate's assets with the County Court that included the assessed value of the house and the farm, all bank accounts, CDs, mutual funds, life insurance, etc.
7. Maintain the property (the house and all household goods) until it can be distributed or sold
8. Pay the estate's debts and taxes. I filed the 2018
income tax return and will have to file an income tax return for 2019 since the corn and soybeans from the farm were not sold until 2019.
9. Distribute assets according to Mom's Will. I am in the process of doing this currently.
10. Dispose of other property to the rightful heirs.
Our family attorney told me that I deserved a Fee as Personal Representative and he wrote a check which I took without hesitation. I earned that Personal Representative Fee. My brother has no problem with me receiving a fee for being the Personal Representative for Mom's Will/Estate.
My MIL's estate was much simpler financially but very time consuming to deal with her possessions. It took me four trips to her storage unit to get her holiday decorations, extra dishes, etc. My minivan was packed full each trip!!
It took us hours to deal with the 75 photo albums and a lifetime's collection of jewelry. The woman was a collector!!
These are the hours and hours that I feel we put in to earn the executor's fee.
If so - yes, he should take a percentage of the fee and that percentage should be 100. Those were your MIL's instructions. No other factors are relevant. Nothing else can be correct.
The biggest issue is that his siblings didn't know that he could get paid. The financial side was very easy to deal with because of previous estate planning and a will (which we paid for).
To be fair to my SIL, she and her husband are 15 years older than us and have had a lot of health issues themselves. They also had his mom to care for and live two hours away.
While my husband is worried about the impact the fee might have on his relationship with his sister, neither of us care much if there is damage to the relationship with his brother.
My parents set up a trust, and the successor trustee fee is less (at least in my state) than for an estate. My two brothers are the successor trustees, and I would definitely argue that the brother who is doing all the work should get that fee (the other one is only acting as backup, although they are considered co-successor trustees in the trust). He isn't going to take it, though, he says.
When my duties towards my mother (not live in; average 6 hours/week but always on-call) became onerous because of her attitude towards me and then she was hospitalized for 17 days/rehab/nursing home, etc. and I was putting in a lot more than 6 hrs/week, I pretty much told my brothers I expected payment from that point on. When the main successor trustee brother said he had no problem giving me back-pay for the past few years, too, I jumped on it. Neither of the other two brothers said it wasn't right, although one of their wives said SHE would never take payment for taking care of HER mother. My brother quickly told her that HER mother was nothing like HIS mother. Two of my brothers and I (the third one wasn't asked, but he had the least to do with my mother than anyone else) even independently came up with the same hourly rate -- $20/hour. The back-pay was gifted to me in one lump sum. No taxes taken out. And I was paid $20/hour from that point on, including travel time to and from the NH.
Now my mother got very angry towards me when the subject of payment came up the one time I asked her. "You don't pay family!" was her reply. Well, no you don't, but then you also don't expect one family member to do all the work! (I was the only local sibling.)
She was convinced from that point on that I was trying to cheat her -- always saying how the trust was to be split equally four ways. Well, yes it will be; she just didn't know that I was getting compensation before the trust would be distributed at her death.
I am all for caregivers to get compensated WHILE they are doing the work; waiting until the estate or trust is settled can get very dicey.
Part of the confusion is that the siblings didn't know that my husband didn't get paid for his labor and that we paid for the driveway.
I am glad you are getting so much support from your brothers. I agree with you that caregivers should be paid at the time of the care. Because caregiving starts small, it's easy to dismiss that time at first. As it escalates, it becomes more important to be compensated for that time. The hard part is knowing where that tipping point is.
As isthisrealyreal wrote, "I always wonder why people think it is okay for family to provide free services when they would never consider having a stranger do the same thing for free."
As for the work your husband gave up preparing your MIL apartment - you have ultimately benefited from that by the increased value of your property. Your MIL paid for the materials and part of the house itself, which I assume is now yours completely? Might that not have been considered payment for all the care you provided and a loving son and DIL?
Part of the confusion is that my husband's siblings thought that he had been paid for his labor in finishing the basement.
Also, we paid for a driveway to be poured to her apartment door which was more than the executor's fee. She couldn't get in/out of the apartment without the driveway.
Sibling is executor of mom's trust. Trust has instructions on how it is to be administered and distributed during mom's life and after. Of course, those that know me, this has been an off the board dysfunctional relationship since the care issues began eight years ago.
I do not have a problem with executor being paid the full amount provided by law if the instructions were followed or even if information was provided when requested. But, it wasn't. How should that payment be reduced? Something would be appropriate.
The trust also has requirements to remain eligible. I don't know if those rules were followed either. Mom passed two years ago tomorrow, and estate still not settled. I have asked for information repeatedly. Any of what was requested should have been readily available had the job been done as instructed and should have been.
So, in this case no, the full amount is not warranted. In your case, it may be if there were instructions and if they were followed.
Remember too, that this is husband's decision and responsibility. I would stay out of it and support him in his decision.
I understand your opinion that this is my husband's decision and responsibility - but so was taking care of his mom and most of that was on me.
He works full time and I work part time so I was the one who provided most of her care - almost weekly doctor appts, grocery shopping, making meals, hair appts, cleaning the carpet when she took a laxative and couldn't get to the bathroom quickly enough.
The bottom line is that I look at the executor's fee as recognition for my efforts in caring for his parents. The amount of the fee isn't the point as much as it is validation of my/our contribution.
Not being paid for MIL’s care and the executor fee are 2 separate issues. The 1st you can’t do anything about & should be separate from the 2nd, which we all know is hard to do because it’s just a continuation of you & hubby being taken advantage of & being mistreated by his family. Either way, taking the fee or not, the relationship between hubby & sibling(s) is not going to get any better. What is at risk if your relationship with him. If he doesn’t take the legal & morally acceptable executor fee, then he is (again) accepting his family doormat / scapegoat role. I speak from experience.
Lastly, if you are doing anything to help him with the executor responsibilities, stop now.
I forgot to add, my MIL was the most vocal about my husband not taking the fee because “it’s not right”; yet, when it came time for her to settle her mother’s estate, she had no such reservations. She took her fee & then some.
I would have liked to do less in dealing with her stuff but, because we were selling the house, it had to be dealt with. She was supposed to come to the new house with us but was hospitalized the week before we moved. We spent $1500 remodeling the new house (wider doorways, ramp, putting up a wall in the basement to create another bedroom for one of our kids) to make it accessible for her...not that the siblings consider that when disagreeing about the executor's fee.
I get that the executor's fee is separate but, in reality, it is all mixed together when the care given is so unbalanced.
Hindsight is always 20/20. If I had realized how much there was to deal with (how did she get soooo much stuff in 800 square feet?) and how long it would take, I would have rented a truck and delivered it to my husband's siblings...and let her estate pay for it :)
As the primary caregivers, he is entitled to the fee. An Executor gets a fee because of the work involved with making sure all bills have been paid. That all involved are informed of the filing of the will.
The one thing, though, is Mom did help pay for your house and her living quarters. How much was that? But then, you were there.
To keep peace in the family, let husband do what he feels is right.
We have since sold that house that we bought with my MIL and her investment is back in her estate.
The money that she spent to finish her apartment was 15k in materials. We paid for a driveway to be poured to the apartment (which cost more than the executor's fee that is at issue).
So, yes, we did get the benefit of her finishing the basement but I would point out that she would have spent that much in three months of AL. Had she lived in AL instead of with us for over two years, her estate would have been almost nothing after final expenses and her bequests.
Personally, I would like to see my husband's siblings thanking us for our efforts that preserved my MIL's estate instead of quibbling over a reduced executor's fee.
No. No real financial hardship. But it wasn’t cheap, that’s for sure. The extra in gas alone was crazy. I drive a big Ford Explorer which is ancient. Sure, my choice. But my mother would insist that I drive her to the library branch in her old neighborhood- twenty miles away instead to going to the branch two miles away. Stuff like that - which trying to reason with her on, only causes her to have a complete meltdown.
But for the shopping and the like - since I was DPOA and my name was on one of her checking accounts, I was able to pay for her stuff with her money. She could afford it - she had a heck of a lot more money than I did.
Interestingly enough, I mentioned only one of my two brothers would have gone ballistic if I had taken any payment... That’s the brother that had/has boatloads of money. Second vacation house - a little five bedroom “cabin” in the Columbia River Gorge, ski trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, European Vacations - lots of etc. etc. My family had less money than either of my brothers - but this brother had more money than all of us combined.
Go figure.
You are an angel.
My husband and I have less income than his siblings and spent thousands out of pocket over the years to care for his parents. When his dad was alive, my commute to get him/take him to the doctor/take him home and get home myself was about 60 miles. His appointments were almost weekly - and that doesn't count the money I didn't make missing work. In ten years of taking him to the doctor, he put gas in my car once.
Yet, the BIL had six weeks of paid vacation each year but needed to take care of his own stuff. Plus, he has a family (one child).
Little does he give credit for the time that I took my MIL to several appointments with three kids in tow (she couldn't walk very far so I pushed her in the wheelchair, my seven year old pushed the one year old in a stroller and the four year old rolled her walker because the waiting room was too small/crowded for the wheelchair).
I also had three kids while I was mowing their yard, cleaning their gutters, getting their groceries, packing them for three different moves as their/her needs changed, etc.
My BIL will tell you that he did his part. I hope his daughter cares for him as well as he did for his mom. Maybe then he will understand that a phone call every couple of days and a meal out once a month isn't the same as providing care.
Money aside, my husband and I have tried to instill the belief that family takes care of family in our three boys.
The inital meeting with the attorney to begin probate - I asked this brother if he wanted to come. I wanted him to hear a few things straight from the attorney in hopes it would keep my brother from nagging at me regarding the timeline and such.
So, in front of my brother I tell the attorney I don’t want the fee. The attorney just kinda looked at me oddly so my brother says to him “Well, you’ll be doing all the work”. The attorney then looks at me again with his eyebrows raise. A look which said “Is he kidding? What an azz. Should I enlighten him?” I just give that imperceptible slight shake of my head. You know, the one caregivers quickly perfect from having taken a showtiming elderly loved one to the doctors.
And that was that.
I always wonder to myself when people care for a loved one, are they doing it out of love or a sense of responsibility. If it's the latter then a financial payoff at the end of it should not matter. Yes, if you paid out of your own pocket for things and you are having a hard time making ends meet then perhaps it's your due.
I guess in the end we all have to live with ourselves and knowing you did the right thing should suffice but I guess this is the real world and knowing you did the right thing doesn't pay the bills But ultimately you are the ones who are better off because you cared enough to help.
Like that Jewel song goes "In the end, only kindness matters"
You are right - it's nice to think that doing the right thing is enough. But, kindness won't pay the bills...and now that I have three teenage boys, we have a serious grocery bill!
In the end, I know that my husband and I did what we could to care for his parents. I also know that the executor's fee will help replace my car with 270k miles on it!!
We did make a lot of sacrifices to care for my in-laws. It was the right thing to do but that doesn't mean that it didn't have an impact on us - emotionally and financially.
My husband and I discussed this issue a lot before his meeting with his siblings. He wasn't comfortable taking any of the fee. He doesn't like confrontation so it was really hard for him to fight for that money. Poor guy was in a really hard place between his wife, his siblings and himself.
He was right that his siblings didn't know that he was allowed a fee. In hindsight, he could have brought that up to them at the beginning of this journey so that they could make the decision to be more involved in dealing with her stuff - or not.
People on this site have written a lot about how much time/effort it took to deal with the financial side of an estate. For us, it took so much more time to deal with her possessions. On top of being an accomplished collector, she could be very secretive and hid important papers/ jewelry/money/gift cards in all kinds of places (and then forgot them). Every thing had to be combed through. Yes, I did find her diamond earrings in the sugar bowl! We never did find her good watch (my SIL keeps asking about it and I worry that she thinks I took it).
My SIL felt a bit slighted because she and her hubby took care of his mom for years (money out of pocket for them also) and there was nothing left in her estate when she died. Her MIL passed away six months before her mom did. No doubt, she is dealing with caregiver burnout as well as her own health issues. While I understand her frustration, it doesn't change what happened with the care that we provided for her parents.
father in law, 65 plus went for a gall bladder operation and came home from waist down, no one knew why. Son did not wanted to put up
$ 5000.00 lawyer retainer, could not live in his big home, wife (daughter)and I convinced them to move into a handicap home, sons objected saying they are too old, we responded that they are not asking for monetary help, built a 2 bedroom home three blocks from us, close to us yet far to be independent , and we took care of them for about 30 years, At their death
splitting estate 5 ways, three daughters and two sons, we did all the work maintaining the home, shopping taking to church doctors and such, the two daughters wanted to include me in the inheritance but boys vetoed the idea, They did not lift a finger to help while in laws were alive.
the girls took $ 3000.00 each and sent us to a European vacation.
note that the boys were well off,
but we are happy to have helped. When we drive by their home we can see them sitting in front of their home waving at us,
Grandpa left us 29 years ago, and grandma 17 years ago.
So, do not be afraid to get as much as you can, get paid for your work.
My mother didn't live with me, but I was the one that did the running for her because I lived the closest; I was the one that put up with her nastiness and temper tantrums, too; went to the doctor with her; went shopping with her when the NH had outings. When she passed away, it was another sibling that said that one of my other siblings should get it because they paid for one item a very long time ago. No one considered my more recent expenses - not the financial, nor the emotional costs that came with being there for her. Although I didn't do it for any financial compensation, it would have helped to pay for car repairs and gas, so I can imagine how you feel. You made the sacrifices they are blind to.
I hope and pray your husband can take the money w/o feeling guilty. You deserve a lot more if they're getting an inheritance because of your actions. They owe you.
Would his siblings be complaining if a professional was doing the work?
The reason there are fee schedules for executing Wills is due to the time it takes to handle the complications of settling an estate. Do not compare the fee to the care provided prior to death, those two things are not linked.
Care provided prior to death should be reimbursed during life and should be wholly separate from the estate.
My sister and I were named co-executors of my mother's estate and promptly handed it over to her lawyer so that all we had to do was make a few phone calls and sign a few papers (mind you by then I had already taken care of everything that needed to be liquidated). You don't want to know what the lawyer's fee was!
Hubby needs to acknowledge his worth. And yours.
If the Exec is a friend/non-family member, handling an estate can still take a lot of time and cause stress in dealing with beneficiaries and those who aren't included for one reason or another. Rarely is the fee sufficient to cover the work involved, IMHO.
Caregiving for years, losing out on income, using one's own assets to do what we're unable to do with our time & strength, saving the estate so there are assets to be distributed - there are so many "above and beyond" investments that we end up making as caregivers, with often little or no help from others (sometimes worse), "[t]his isn't the way family treats family" when others are so greedy/ avaricious/unreasonable in many ways.
This topic is one of several close to my heart. I wish you well and Godspeed in handling your remaining responsibilities, and condolences for the loss of your loved one.
I cared for my father for 7.5 years after Mom passed; I helped him to remain as independent as possible - finally moving him into a new mobile home placed in my front yard.
When the time came to settle the estate, 2 lawyers told me that family doesn't generally take the Executor's fee and I thought long and hard and decided not to push the issue and divided everything equally with my sisters. I have no regrets. I wasn't stupid - I always knew that the day might come when I would be the one needing assistance from my sisters - and I pray it doesn't come to that.
Talk to your attorney - you have to go to an attorney for Probate - ask for advice. I asked for advice. I was happy with my 1/3 of the estate, and no, it wasn't a huge estate. But I felt joy that I had done what my parents had asked of me, without worrying about "earning" more money. Both my sisters earned way more than my meager minimum wage - but I came out the winner.