Should a POA compensate themselves?

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I can see 2 issues here 1) is it OK to be compensated and 2) will compensation affect future medicaid application

Some get compensation. Where I am (Alberta, Canada), compensation has to be specified in the document, but I have read here that in some states compensation is allowed without it being specified. I personally have no problem with that if the parent can afford it, as caring for a parent and their business is a lot of work.

However - I gather your father is past the point where he could sign a contract compensating you as caregiver.

So, you have to make sure that you are not jeopardizing any possible future application for Medicaid for your dad that could see any money taken by you as "gifting". You need to check with a lawyer experienced in elder law and Medicaid regulations to make sure that aspect is covered.

Calmly realize that your bro likely is experiencing total burnout. He went through 5 hospitalizations & return home resets.....

To me, your dad & you really do not have any time to do anything "creative" with his $. Things are going to need to get turned into income to pay for a facility. Should you as his dpoa compensate yourself its a breach of your fiduciary duty & if dad should need to apply for medicaid before 2022 will place a transfer penalty against dad. The only way to "pay" you would be IF you are providing caregiving to him as a job and this is done by a drawn up by an atty, personal services contract in which dad pays you and all is fully reportable and taxable income. If your family lawyer is clueless on Medicaid compliance and regulations, you need to find a new NAELA atty to handle all dads legal from here on out.

Dads right now in a hospital and then moving into AL, right? Then the facilities are providing all care. Too late imo for caregiving contract.

At this point, to me, the first hard decision will be determine what level of care he needs to go into AND second hard decision, how long he can private pay for care from his existing assets. You mentioned AL & Memory care. I'd try to speak with social worker to find out what level of care he is likely to be discharged to needing and if that level of facility takes Medicaid for your state. If not, then it's all private pay. Dads VA aid & attendance will provide some funds towards this but all the rest is private pay.

If its looking like dad could do either memory care or a NH, it may be best to go into a NH as he won't have to move again(!!) 6 - 9 months from now.

Most families just do whatever time & costs needed without any compensation.

Third hard decision will be his home. Dad can continue to own his home but it may not be at all feasible for him to pay for care AND cover house costs. If you already find your time for oversight on the property isn't feasible, the house needs to be sold. If house is to go on market, dad may want to pay in advance for house costs (utilities, taxes, insurance, yard). If DOM (days on market) is 4 mos for your area, maybe prepay 6 mos as there's likely a few weeks needed to get house market ready. If house needs cleaning or clearing, dad pays for this although you as dpoa can write the checks from his account. Otherwise you or other family will pay those costs. If you reimburse yourself at closing, it will likely be considered gifting should dad apply for Medicaid.

Caring - About the drum beating on medicaid from both Golden23 & myself...... Most families find themselves unprepared for the costs of care and often misinformed on what Medicare, Medicaid & VA will pay for. Each state administers its Medicaid program uniquely. Some have medicaid waiver programs for LTC in a AL & memory care. As its a waiver program often the # of facilities participating is low as waivers run for a specifc period of time and may not be renewed. Only medicaid for a skilled nursing facility / NH is dedicated funding. Really the social worker & discharge planner at the hospital dad is at can be of immense help in getting through all.

VA A&A will provide income to the vet for in home caregivers or if they are in a facility.
But what seems to happen with vets, is that between their income & A&A, they still can't cover the cost of the facility. So going on Medicaid is better as all costs will be covered.
Now once on Medicaid, 2 things happen for vets...... Their A&A stops but get a $100 VA personal needs allowance & their monthly income then must be paid to the facility as the required copay or SOC (share of cost) but they get a Medicaid personal needs allowance (from $ 35 - $115 depends on your state, for my mom in TX was $60). Other than his 2 allowances, Dad will have no $. Someone in the family will need to pay all on his house if he wants to continue to own it (allowed as an exempt asset for medicaid).

It's all a lot of decisions to be made to with PLUS the day to day medical with your dad. It's easy to become overwhelmed & burn out. Try to clearly speak with discharge & SW as to what level dad needs and go look for ones that meet his needs. Often family put the elder at AL as its 1/2 the price of a NH thinking they can private pay till death but get a 30 day notice to move them 3 - 4 months later as the reality is they need a NH. Or AL has add-on's as they cannot do their ADLs so the costs spiral up. Hopefully between his savings, pension & house sale he will have 200-400k so likely enough $$$ to private pay for a few years of  care. But if not, he's going to apply for Medicaid & you want to do things now that pose NO problems later.

igloo - I interpreted it as bro walking away after dad's hospitalizations. In any case, there is no help there.

((((((caring))))) - igloo is our unofficial resident expert on these things so you can trust what she says. I totally agree about finding a lawyer who specializes in these matters, and about selling the house to provide for dad's future care. Dad's disease is progressing so he has increasing needs for care and it is expensive.

"Really the social worker & discharge planner at the hospital dad is at can be of immense help in getting through all. "

Sounds like a good place to start! Let us know how you make out!

Igloo....I wanted to make sure I read that correctly. No......he hasn't been apart of any of these hospitalizations. The only one was for one night of observations at the VA (which my brother didn't even spend the night, I did). I'm not sure that he even knows what position we are in now. I'm guessing not since he doesn't do social media...and that all of our numbers have been blocked by him and his fiancé!

Caring, since the attorney says you should compensate yourself for the POA work it must be permitted in the POA document itself or somewhere. You will need some sort of contract before you can begin to pay yourself. Since you cannot negotiate a contract with yourself ask the attorney how a contract can be drafted that specifies the services that you provide and how much the compensation will be. My mom has a stipulation in her POA that POA can pay themselves. My suggestion is to have an assessment of dad completed by a geriatric care manager then negotiate with that person through the attorney on what payment will be.

Igloo, you mentioned it's too late to do a caregiver agreement? As long as the services outlined in the caregiver agreement do not overlap with ALF or NH, why would it be too late? A facility doesn't necessarily do everything e.g Advocate, secure qualified docs health care (very important for PD), secure living arrangements, deal with moves, providing entertainment for loved one that facility does not, visitation, shopping for things not provided by facility, financial management, etc... I'm in a similar situation, except my father is not in the hospital. I have considered the caregiver agreement and talked to an elder law attourney about it. They mention there's people who establish caregiver agreements right before entering a NH and successfully get approved for Medicaid provided the contract is detailed out and that it's taxable income. In Florida, it seems many have used a Lump Sum payment to compensate for services over the lifetime.

May I simply offer my hope that God will bless you and your husband richly as you provide the loving care for your daddy..

Grace + Peace,
Bob- Age 80.

lawyers knows the law better than most people, this is where they make their living and why they're in the position they're in. If the lawyer specified that you need to compensate yourself then she knows what she's talking about, go ahead and do it but don't hurt the person your taking care of

caringformydad,
This thread has some of the best advice I've seen. I had a similar problem. I asked my accountant and my lawyer friend (but I had to pay them) My mother moved in with us at her request and we (mostly my wife) cared for her for 25 months/24/7 before we just had to find a facility, which was the best I'd seen and the same or cheaper than those lesser places...sorry...digress.  Being paid for poa work does several things and each has an effect on the other. The prudent thing to do is check with all who are capable of helping to figure it out...that's the professionals who deal with this sort of thing. Even the public sector help will be good. Follow the law to your advantage. Working with the governmental agencies if you're doing this 24/7 will be just like doing two jobs. You won't find it easy to record everything they require AND get the caregiving done too.
Oh, if you didn't log in or if you're unsure, copy what you wrote before you post the answer. That will save it in case you need to paste it after log in.

I have a couple of answers for you after taking care of my terminally ill mother and my father for 18 years. 12 years ago, my father had a house, $450k in saving and was in good health. He went to live with my brother, gave him POA and my brother took everything. When my father came to me, I took care of him full time and found that the because of the POA, there was nothing we could do, legally, to recover ANYTHING. Why are you even asking if you can compensate yourself - if you are taking care of him, reasonable compensation is fine - this is a judgement he would normally make and if he can't that's why you have POA. However, if they have dementia, the state or the (in my case the VA), the VA(per example) will REQUIRE and monitor that any of their money pay only for bills for the beneficiary.  Nothing can be paid without a receipt and you CANNOT pay yourself for anything, including YOUR bills.   A federal investigator interviews you for the role as a Federal Fiduciary, interview references and do a background check - and it p***d me of when he told me I could hire and pay for caregivers, but my time had no VALUE.  
In THIS case, you can never compensate yourself for your caretaking. However, what I have done is to create a healthcare company, subcontract other caretaking companies to be caregivers as well as hiring myself to be a caregiver for my father.  Now, my time has value - but it is treated as income - so I do have a job after all.

I didnt notice that Caringformydad (the OP) was asking for advice about Medicaid.
So, Caring, if your concern about being paid for POS duties is just a moral quandary, rest your mind. If Dad provided in the POS document that you were to be paid, that's what he wanted done with his money. If the attorney is recommending it, unless you mistrust her legal advice, you should get paid. If you think your attorney is mistaken, you need to see another attorney who specializes in elder and estate planning.
It's not morally wrong to be compensated for your time. You can put the money away in savings in case you need to spend on your dad later if you want.

Keep an 8 x 10 notebook in your purse. Write down your activities daily meals, bathing, cleaning 1.5 hr. 2.0 hrs
Read to him whatever. And pay yourself at least $12.00 per hr and pay Social Security and taxes on income. Job title: home care provider, ask atty for further suggestions.  I was my uncle's legal gu a rdian but guardianships are expensive.  Are there elder law attys in your city?

<3

I became POA for both of my parents almost 15 years ago. At the time, it was a "just in case" situation because they were both in their mid to late 70's and my mother was showing the beginning signs of dementia. I didn't even consider asking about compensation and wouldn't have accepted it at that point because I was naïve and had no idea what I was in for. My dad died 10 years ago, and then the work began. My mom couldn't balance her checkbook, had no idea how much money she had or where it was, there were still a couple of rental houses to manage and sell and I had to protect mom from predatory telephone solicitations. Over the past ten years I have had to move mom three times, deal with hospitalizations, take her to medical appointments, manage her dwindling assets, run errands, do her laundry and oversee her care. It has basically become a job. My POA states that I cannot be paid for my services, but I have a legal opinion that I can be compensated for doing things that don't involve her finances. To date, I have only repaid myself for out of pocket expenses I have paid for her. Like the OP, my brother "left the building" shortly after my dad died and has had no contact with mom or with me since.

This has been a learning experience. When my husband's visually handicapped sister recently decided to change her POA from my husband to one of our adult children, I suggested that she include compensation in the new document. Likewise, my husband and I have included compensation in our own POA documents which name each other first, and then one of our children. I feel that it is a matter of fairness, especially if one child is doing far more than the others and giving up their free time or other employment to fill the POA role. Having one child do all the work with no compensation is bound to cause resentment. Just make sure it is set up correctly so that it doesn't cause tax or Medicaid issues in the future.

Similar experience here. Sibling disappeared. I gladly felt to help my parents. I made $0 the first year, and honestly, that was rough. I finally went to an elder lawyer who guided me through everything! I now receive some $, everything is organized, consolidated, and on the up-and-up with the state. And it feels good! Now, I can focus on the caregiving and the little things....
You must take care of yourself, or you will burn out, and be no help to anyone. Create less stress, and bring in more Love. These are precious times....

Take one of the job offers and hire a geriatric care manager for some of your Dad's needs (using his funds). These tasks are overwhelming you partly because you're learning as you go. A GCM can cut through a lot of the confusion and runaround.
You need to look at this with your heart and HEAD. 'Put on your life jacket first." How are you affecting your retirement and your future social security by not working? And, frankly, sounds like you need to force some balance into your life. Dad is cared for, help is available. Seek it.

IsntEasy... What does "GCM" stand for...?

"Put on your life jacket first" is excellent, wise advice.
And you got it right with your log-in name. Care taking elderly parents IS NOT EASY. Learning how to balance using our head AND our heart is a very important life-lesson for every aspect of living.

Thank you to "old bob 1936" for what you posted. It was my first thought too to just say to Caringformydad: I'm sorry for all you're dealing with and I hope you and your husband can and will survive these difficulties and not be depleted or lose the joys and blessings in your own lives as you navigate the caregiving years with your Dad.

Caretaker13: GCM is Geriatric Care Manager. There's an old New York Times article that nicely explains what they do. I probably can't post the link here, so Google "Why Hire a Geriatric Care Manager" and "New York Times" and you should hit it.
They can be a godsend for families dealing with complicated elder issues. Their skills run the gamut and they've seen it all before.

Hello Caringformydad
I understand your circumstances well. My husband took 24/7 care of his mother who had Alzheimer's for six years (I with him for 3 years). Before we met I took care of my first husband from the day after our wedding for 23 years, total care for 20 years (he had MS and was quadriplegic, on a feeding tube and could not eat or speak for 15 years).
When I met my current husband I knew I was going into another long term care giving experience from day one. Unfortunately Mom only lived 3 more years after we married. She was also 24/7 and as God would have it in his providence, she needed two people shortly after we came together. My husband was her POA, and his brother could care less about helping with mother. My husband was alone to care for both his parents until they died at home.
It is a hard decision to make to keep one's parent at home and make the sacrifices needed to see them safely to the end, with some quality of life. As POA, we lived our lives as we needed in order to keep Mom home with us, and we also spoke to a lawyer who stated, it is life, you do what you must and keep good records. He gave us specific advise to our personal situation I can't go into here.
As someone earlier mentioned how getting assistance and caregiving are two jobs, that is no exaggeration at all! I have 29 years experience with 24/7 at home care. The 23 years with David I had to apply for every program out there (all the ones mentioned) and had to keep daily detailed records of care while doing it in order to keep him home with me. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to do, being a caregiver wife, but it was the best decision of my life!
Now, when L and I got married I knew taking care of my new Mother In Law would be a big job and very different from MS, but also similar in some ways. The difference here was her son gave up his livelihood (an artist) to take care of both parents while living with them, he did everything to give them a high quality life until death. Again, the best decision he could have ever made. In spite of having POA, he gave of all he had as well to do this important calling. We didn't apply for any programs for Mom, we lived off what we had, what she had, kept good records, talked to lawyers and social workers, etc.....
The bottom line is this....where do you want your Daddy to be, with you, happy until the end? Count the cost to you. Could you sacrifice time, energy and personal life for a while and feel good about that? At the end of his life, will you be glad you put him in a facility or kept him home? I know full well the consequences of them both, Mom needed to be in a facility for rehab, but it was for a short time (months) and very costly, not just financially either.
Listen to your lawyer, get advise from everyone out there in the field and take notes, record conversations if the other party is willing, so you can refer back to what was said for comprehension. Do whatever you have to figure out what is the best thing to do to help your Daddy get to the end with the best quality of life, and in the end, I promise you, you will be glad you took care of him 24/7 for years untold if need be because you will know you honored him and that is worth more than all the money in the world.
The one thing I would advise you to do is make sure you and your husband get regular respite. The lawyer told us it is the one cost no one frowns upon. I sure hope it goes well with you, your husband, and your Daddy. You will be blessed in the care giving and I pray it will go well with you each moment you do....

Mom's lawyer said to take track of my hours just for work outside of visiting, care etc - that's all that paperwork, calls, time driving etc - take the local minimum wage - then take 0.1% of whole value of estate - in my case the 2 figures were within $10.00 so I just rounded it off for convenience

This money covers my gas, wear & tear on car, insurance, the need to get a cell phone, stationary, stamps etc plus I had to hire a cleaning lady [2 times a month] to free up my time as my husband ended up doing everything [not fair & he has his own health issue as do I ] so I figure about 1/2 is used up with these issues - I get enough to have a bit of spending money for a light lunch a few times a month [often on way to or from visiting her] which helps lift my spirits too which as time goes on can be quite important

This is not taking money from your dad's care but actually paying to make your time freer to do that care - you give your love freely but you still need to pay for gas for the car, food etc -

This is not enriching yourself but making sure you are not impauversing yourself either - take that money if you want & put it for savings your own old age - I bet your dad would really approve of that idea

If your father has designated you as his agent in his Power of Attorney document, you should have the authority to establish contractual agreements on his behalf, such as a Caregiver Contract with yourself as the contracted provider.  Talk with your family lawyer or an elder law attorney in your state, and learn more about your roles as Caregiver and as Attorney-in-Fact under the POA.

As Caregiver, you are providing care that may continue to save your father from a nursing home admission. But without a written agreement, you may be setting yourself up for unnecessary self-doubt and criticism.

A Caregiver Contract recognizes and rewards the time and effort that you give to care, and it helps to prevent arguments and misunderstandings among other family members who can't or won't help.

And without a written agreement, the elder who pays you for care could be disqualified from Medicaid coverage if he does need nursing home care in the future. Medicaid could consider payments to family members to be "disqualifying transfers."

 If you talk with your family lawyer or an Elder Law Attorney in your state, the Attorney can prepare a Caregiver Contract that is compliant with Medicaid regulations in your state, to document the compensation and services in a format that Medicaid can understand and accept. If you are authorized in the Power of Attorney document to sign the Contract on your father's behalf, the Contract can be an effective way to manage details, so you can focus your energy on his needs and minimize the impact on your physical health and financial well being.  Your are performing a valuable service, well worth the compensation.

I was/am a POA...first time for 28 years and now for 12 years. This is a monumental exhausting and difficult job and one that requires a person to have high ethics and assume a high level of responsibilities. I don't care who you are a POA too or your relationship. YOU ARE DEFINITELY ENTITLED TO BE COMPENSATED. But if you don't need the money or don't want to charge anything and you can handle that, fine. But you DO DESERVE IT. Maybe you could take it and if you wanted, donate it to a charity but by all means - YOU DESERVE IT AND SHOULD TAKE IT, especially if you are losing part of YOUR life and WHO YOU ARE because of the heavy work involved. That is all that makes sense. I am also wondering if his dementia is getting to the point where he needs to be placed somewhere. Give it some thought but do charge....you deserve every cent.

The lawyer asking you to consider fair compensation for yourself, for your lost income...right! A paid caregiver would be getting that money, why not you? Log your time, put a value on it that meets the marketplace cost of semi skilled in home care...it adds up in a hurry. NO ONE SAID YOU had to spend it on yourself...but it is a legit SPENDDOWN TOOL!!!

I DID NOT compensate myself for caregiving, but that doesn't mean you can't.