Why won't Social Security accept the POA my father executed prior to brain surgery?

WHat you need for Social Security is not POA but Representative Payee status. You do not always have to bring you loved on in to the office with you, but they do take reasonable measures to avoid fraud. You should create a separate account for the check to go to and carefully document that everything taken out of it is used for the person's benefit and real needs.

We have not reached this bridge yet. But a few years ago I opened my own checking account but remained on the original checking account as joint owner because I don't trust SSA. Her check goes into the first account and my checks go into my account. I did this because if she passed SSA would take back the balance of her last check automatically.
When her checking account builds up to a significant amount I write out a check and we take it to the credit union and deposit into her saving account, not into mine. Yes we have separate savings account at the credit union. Should an audit be done by medicare, medicaid, or SSA it should show these transaction clearly for them.
I pay all of the bills, including any co-pays for her medical treatments.
I am working on getting myself appointed as her guardian. That is taking nearly a year to do.Our only judge that handles that was just removed from the bench for fraud investigation along with his alleged co-conspirator.
Since I don't have anything giving me any sort of poa it gets a little difficult getting her care beyond our PCP. So I just let them play their little game until they determine she can't make the decision or answer their questions correctly.
I did find an elder care attorney and am just waiting fr something from him on our next step. As far as I can see the next step may be income tax returns. But our attorney is also a CPA so I should be able to get some guidance from him.
My wife did not have any sort of DPOA expressing her wishes so I may run into some trouble there.
This thread has been very helpful to me.

You don't have to jump through hoops. You're just making more difficult than it should be. When I went to SSA for my mother they told me the same thing, but they also told me there is a way to have any and all access to her records and that it to become representative payee. It took away her financial freedom, but according to your story, it doesnt seem like your father could handle his own affairs anyway. Sure it was a bit of a hassle up front to prove to them that my mother was physically unable to handle her own self, but that was due to my doctor's fault. SSA literally gave me everything I needed which was to get a form filled out by my mom's doctor, come back to SSA to be interviewed and then wait for me to be selected. And all I had to do for them since was to fill out what they called an accounting form to let them know what I used her money on. I'm not sure why its so difficult.

you will have to retain an attorney to do your battle. I am having an issue with the bank as will. Have a POA and they want you to jump through hoops. What a disgrace! What was the final outcome?

Other agencies that we were surprised to find out do not accept POA, were the cable company and phone company.

Interesting, Vstefans, I'll have to check out "Representative Payee". Thank you.

For SSI - you just have to get online and usually also go in to an office and get what is called "Representative Payee" instead. I managed to do it for my dad, so it could not have been too hard.

Yeah, fraud....Heard about the family who left mom to mummify in her bed rather than calling doctor or police? The things people will do for money you would not believe. I think they are right to be very suspicious and careful. Too often the people who complain about the rules are the ones who yell loudest when the rules are broken and they get shafted.

The Social Security Administration does not honor any POA's. That's the way they do business, and I think it's because of misrpresentatoin and possible fraud over the years. I really don't know for sure. Don't even try it.

I think this takes a lot of us by surprise. I had the same "awakening" years ago with my first elder's death. It was as real mess, but SS has never accepted a POA. I still haven't figured out exactly what we are supposed to do - at least in a streamlined manner. Eventually, people seem to get things done, but this is something that I have never understood.
Good luck. We can all use advice on this.
Carol

We are dealing with this now. We got a paper from SSA about supplemental drug coverage that my mother-in-law has thru them. She has moderate to advanced stage Alzheimer's and my husband was given POA when she was still able to make lucid decisions. He filled out the SSA paper required to renew this supplemental coverage, and there was a question at the bottom that asked "Do you have someone helping you with this form?" and requested the name of the person. My husband (naively) answered "Yes" and signed his name. BIG MISTAKE! She was denied the extra drug coverage, due to the fact that he signed his name. We had to file an appeal with SSA. He took the POA papers to the local office, and was told that SSA does not recognize POA! WWHHAATT?? What good is a POA if it is not recognized by a gov't entity? He then had to try to get his Mom to sign a paper stating that she has Alzheimer's (which she was still able to do, even tho she doesn't understand that she has Alzheimer's LOL), take it back to the SSA office, and then open a bank account WITHOUT her name on the account, (because...they said..she is not able to handle her own affairs) My husband has been handling her bills, etc. for a couple of years, but now is required to have a separate bank account??? This gov't system is CRAZY!!!!! It only causes more burden on ppl who are already stressed with the day to day care of the Alzheimer's patient, and the extra work associated with keeping up with another person's financial and medical care.

Many agencies and banks (federal) will not accept a POA, unless signed under seal with two witnesses . This is just a means of preventing problems later on when objections start to fly.

If the POA is not an acceptable form of assigning responsibility for government agencies, then some form for proof of responsibility needs to be established to rectify this problem. My M-I-L set up a trust several years ago with my wife and my brother-in-law being trustees. My wife also has durable POA for her mom, who is 92, legally blind and now living in assisted living. We still had to take her to her bank and to the office of her investment counselor in order to get simple changes made in the way her bills are paid and to change her cash distribution from her investments in order to pay for the assisted living facility. My wife is also on her mom's checking account, but special actions had to be taken for her to handle all of her mom's bill payments and changes of address. Everybody has a copy of the POA on file, but it doesn't save much running around or personal attention by my M-I-L. I should also mention that my M-I-L has early stages of dementia.

One thing that should not be overlooked is that we have elected representatives in Washington who should be made aware of these problems. Write or call them and let them know the trouble that is being caused by these federal agencies and the problems they are causing people who are caring for elderly and infirm relatives. If a POA doesn't provide enough security for the person being cared for, then what can be done to securely pass that authority to a caregiver? Our reps in Congress should be able to find a solution.

The other way to do things, if you can't get a representative payee account set up, is to get it all manageable via online banking, and just leave it in the orignal account. I even set up my parents up with a spearate e-mail address and put that in at the ssa.gov site. That ended up being OK for everything with my mom, whose circumstances were just a little different.

My experience was the same, for SSI matters you have to be named "representative payee" as they do not use the POA directly. I had to fill out a bunch of forms and bring documentation to an apppointment at my local Social Security office to get my dad's taken care of. It actually was not too painful or time-consuming compared to some of the other things I had to go through with the trusteeship, where I had to go downtown to county offices repeatedly and they did not want to take copies instead of non-existent orignials of anything. I hoep they will be as reasonable with you.

Our state reps, congressman, senators should get a copy of these posts & read
them perhaps they might address these issues if you don't vote for them or tell them you will not unless they help resolve these issues. There are more of us then there are of them. These people or many of them are drawing three or more retirements while many of us got caught in the Windfall Act and lost most of our SS. I am so tired of our elected reps forgetting we elected them. Good Luck we will all be faced with these issues.

All we wanted was to get Daddy's address changed so we would get tax documents in the future and to get a printout of this past year's income so I could file their tax return. Nothing else. I'm already on his bank account and have been for almost 40years. That was not a problem.
I talked to the hospice people today & they are supposed to be getting the letter from the doctor I need.
Today I remembered what used to happen everytime we got a Congressional Inquiry when I worked for IRS. Management literally jumped thru hoops to get issues resolved. I have decided that is what I am going to have to do. SSA should not be making life more difficult for people who have given up their own lives to care for others. Even if I can't resolve this issue for myself I am going to do what I can to make things easier for those who follow me. Maybe I won't get anything changed, but maybe I will. I'll never know unless I try. I propose we all write our Congressional representatives and flood them with information on what it is like trying to cut thru the red tape with SSA.
I won't have to deal with Medicaid or any lookback periods. But, I have been extremely worried about the uninvolved brother coming in after Daddy & Mama have died and wanting to know how every penny has been spent. I was also worried about keeping all of the receipts, bank statements, etc so I could prove things. Eventually these things add up and fill up space. My sister had a talk with my mother about the record and receipt keeping. We are working on drawing up a codicil to the will saying that anyone, other than my sister, that questions where the money has gone or questions their fair share of the estate loses their right to inherit anything. A separate agreement is being drawn up that says I am only answerable to my mother and sister and they have 2 months from the end of a month to question any amounts expended for my parents. It will set up a schedule of the date receipts will be destroyed (except of course what has to be kept for IRS and the like). Once past that date, they are beyond audit. I have been spending almost as much time taking care of their business as I have been taking care of them. My own life, like most of yours, has been neglected taking care of theirs. Next on the agenda is to try to simplify their financial affairs. They do not need 3 checking accounts and savings at 5 financial institutions. Maybe more than 1 savings account is needed, but not 3 checking accounts.

Chimonger, I have a box that's labeled n organized for instance, the mil Medical bill for 2011, 2012 n 2013 with separate folders as well as her utilities n property taxes n etc. Like a dummy, I didn't keep all of 2010 records but I probable could go back to bank for statements if needed? I also keep the withdraw slips from her account n write a note on them for its purpose. Thanks for the 5yrs look back just n case. It's about like the income tax filing papers when it comes to holding onto them. ; )

notwellmyself................ I just re-read your initial question. I found out that you need to get the right person on the phone!!! Example there was one "minor"
(YEA SURE ...minor!!!) detail I needed to get my Mothers Medicaid application approved!!! The entire application was a breeze compared to this. It was proof of her Life Insurance Policy not being a cash withdrawal before death policy, I needed to prove that it only matured upon her death. Sounds simple right???? A piece of paper stating a fact! How could this be a problem, they had my POA papers, they had told me this was the type of policy over the phone, they said it does not say that this action was ranted on the POA papers. So I called and called and called and called about 100 x's) ... well lets say I wasn't going to stop, until I got a yes!!!! I explained the details of my situation every time, I told each person I spoke to on the phone to make a note of why and what I needed every time I called. Then I finally got a smart girl on the phone that noticed my persistence and the urgency of my Mom's life on hold for just a written letter with the fact stated. She said "well OK that's all you need?"... she understood !!!! I wasn't asking for money just a letter for Medicaid!!!! She commented on my persistence and apologized for all the hassle!!! I had the letter two days later!!!
Mom was kind of "stuck" in a locked in unit for seniors, not a pretty scene!!!
I needed her finances in order to move on with her care plan.
I also had a hard time with a certain billing department at that Hospital, no one would answer my questions, only the head of that dept. knew the answers and he was always too busy and he'd call back when I wasn't home and leave messages. They wanted payment but I needed to explain, my Mom's finances were being held up due to the improper wording on the POA. So I went personally to the office, by this time the two girls in the billing dept knew me WELL, we were on first name basis they recognized my voice by this time, they knew exactly what I needed to do, as they both heard my story over weeks of phone tag, but this was not their job. So I said "is he in?" they said" yes, but he's in a meeting" " I said I'm off ALL DAY GOT NOTHING BUT TIME (big fibber I was) .... I'll wait until he's got time to talk to me.... I just want to pay but can't at the moment." I guess billing dept.'s are not used to honest people hunting them down.... Well I sat there for not too long... I had my meeting and got more than I expected (he showed me in a 10 minute tour... what I needed which door to go to who to speak to etc.) all of what I needed to do to clear up the billing issue and get her released to a NH. I had many applications to fill out by different departments, because as it turned out Mom was so broke (explained in the application process, paper trail I had to give) that I paid the minimum she required for her income level etc.
One lady I spoke to after all was done, I had called to make sure no strings were left untied actually chuckled and said you're a commendable person, most people would have given up long ago!!!!
See I think you need to not waist time people (employees) that you know are no help to you (there's a lot of them out their), you need to state what your need or actions or reasons are clearly, to those who can help or those who are willing to do "their job" , know the right questions to ask and to whom.
If you hit a dead end take a road that gets you there!!!!

Whatever you can do to smooth the way to taking proper care of what needs done, do it.
SOME of those solutions might appear to be fudging, or borderline legal.
There are situations requiring dealing with these organizations.
lildeb did good, making joint w/right of survivor account with elder.
That fixes bill paying, handling money in/out of that account
--be sure to keep really good records where the money is spent, as if elder later enters facility, they might want data, to make sure you didn't misuse money they think should have been used to pay for his care in their facility. .
5-year look-back??

Why can't you just have your name added onto her bank account if she is getting direct deposit from her SSA? That is what my mil did for she added her son's name onto her account that way, if we need to pay bills n etc for her we can withdraw it n take care of her needs. She has moderate Alzheimer's n he does have a POA as well.

There simply has to be a better way for legal POA's to be accepted by multiple agencies!
This mega-snafu garbage, not only for each agency, but between agencies is untenable!

I have a 27 page POA in addition to a letter signed by his family doctor of 25 years. Having both of these did no good. I applied for payee representative, that was accepted for SS. However, more red tape if any pension, etc. is issued by the US Treasury. It never ends. They don't seem to understand that a dementia pt. with a letter from the doctor stating no financial or legal matters can be handled by the pt. is valid. Incredibly frustrating!!!!!!!!

I have been doing advocacy for a number of people.
Routinely, in each system, the person must sign paperwork [usually not POAs] naming / allowing me to interact on their behalf regarding that system and it's services--not even dealing with money: just paperwork, appointments, discussions of cases with systems, only. Despite signed forms on file, systems STILL argue, debate and deny access, for various glitches:
===form not on file; form done in a different office; form only for that time-frame; form only applies to one office, affiliated office needs it's own release form; on and on--==even though, at time of signing, we were told specifically the signature applied until the signer removed it--even when that is worded on the form.
===Further, releases for Others to interact on behalf of a patient, only apply to the hospital they are done at; if a patient is moved, I have been told, NEW releases and POAs for the new institution must be done--HIPPA laws really are cumbersome.

==SSA: Separate permissions to interact on behalf of client, are needed for SSA and for Medicare permission; either of these can get lost in files, or disappear, and need redone.
==VA: One permitted access person may be listed on VA system "face sheet",
other permitted access persons may be missed because they got added as "scanned in documents"; sometimes it disappears in their computer system, or a worker may just be having a bad day. Things get lost and need redone--or go in person to stand at the window to get person to dig thru computer files to find it. Accessing via the Community-Based Outpatient Clinics, instead of the VA's larger hospitals, is helpful, especially if you are there often enuf the workers recognize you [same for other agencies].
==DSHS: Usually one time does it, but they can lose it, and it may need repeated, if workers cannot find it on file.

There ARE people who commit crimes against elders by leading vulnerable people to execute new POAs and wills before the elder has been declared unfit, or simply intervening in their lives dishonestly. THAT still needs guarded against.
We need some method of putting a lock on POAs and legal instruments done when person is the most lucid, to prevent unscrupulous interlopers taking advantage of entire estates, and legal instruments need to be applicable to multiple agencies to smooth the POAs need to interact with multiple agencies.
Are the dishonest people a minority, or a majority?

Despite those, and gov't/industry troubles, real people, with real feelings, trying to "fix things", however imperfectly, usually driven by their own agendas and limited knowledge.
Our systems seem to be imploding: they were designed for maximum investment/ profiteering by some. NO civilization can survive continuing "business as usual" this way.
Those who have attempted to "fix it" keep trying to retain old patterns of profiteering: that will not work anymore.
We must do what it takes, to make viable, rational, sensible changes that even the lucid, less educated can understand.
Maybe laws and systems need deleted and re-built simpler, instead of continually patching old systems and laws, mistakenly retaining old laws/systems.

News ticker-tape: Legislation is poised for vote to allow up to a 5-fold increase in fees compensation to insurance companies, jacking up fees to Medicare recipients.
People are being legally locked into subscribing to these plans.
We need to contact legislators and tell them NO, and try to offer constructive alternatives to solve issues, so legislators have other input besides industry Think Tanks.
MAYbe we need new/better, more flexible rules for Medical Savings Accounts.
If we think banking industries ripped everyone to financial shreds, wait until we see what insurance industry has done, and is about to do.

Since before advent of "Advantage Plans", Insurance Companies have been getting over $800+/month from Gov't, per enrolled client, whether or not the client accesses medical care, in ADDITION to the Medicare deduction from the SSI check, monthly fees a client pays out-of-pocket, Co-pays, and other fees.
The insurance industry has grown at a blinding rate,, during the last 60 years.
Why? At what total [not just out-of-pocket] real costs to people, industry and our economy?
"How things are", is broken.
We are in a transitional time period for all infrastructure.
We can participate in that process.

Yogibear I am glad you brought this up. About notary... I found that notary's sometimes take their duties too far. Job is that the documents are original and the person signing has proved to be the person signing, and other witnesses are who they claim by proper ID. If the document states it is only to be notarized only if principal is of sound mind, a notary may need proof of this but can't judge whether a person is of sound mind. You need Dr's and a Judge to come to that conclusion. That is mostly what the P.O.A. is for... acting on behalf of someone who can't make their own decisions. The Notary should not be concerned with the wording, just who is signing. They don't have the power to decide mental ability. If it were a question of mental ability and that has been decided and documented, the P.O.A. is not what you need. Then it's too late, Guardianship is next step.

What I have decided to do about the 1099 is add up all of the amounts paid to him last year, fill out a substitute 1099 form with an explanation that SSA would not give us the information. I'll worry about the legal mumbo-jumbo later. They won't send a replacement 1099 to the last address because a "helpful" person at the old address sent things back to people & put a note in the mailbox to not deliver mail because my parents are in a nursing home. They are not, but the "helpful" person has sure screwed things up for us. Among other things, we also did not get the Terminex renewal & coverage was cancelled.
When things settle down I will attempt to jump thru the hoops, but my feet hurt too bad right now to jump very high.

Replacement Form 1099's are easily available on-line (mailed to SSA address of record in 10 days or so). Nothing else is needed! If the individual is deceased, you MUST appear in person but all that is required is a simple will naming a personal representative, and the PR be there to receive the 1099.(takes about 3 minutes).

I went to a bank to get MPOA papers notorized for me to assign my agents. Due to the states paperwork, that I got online, the wording wasn't right for them. They said because the paperwork said, "Being of sound mind...." They wouldn't take the responsibility of whether or not I ws of sound mind. Sort of funny but I wasn't laughing at the time. I ended up going to a print shop with a notary there.

This question raises a load of other questions in dealing with the government and P.O.A. duties, and acceptance of, as well as other institutions you need to use P.O.A.
First thing I found out myself is the wording on the papers need to be specifically written for each institution that you need to do business with. One bank for example may be OK with basic, general wording, another may see it a problem if lets say it does not specifically say an address change may be made by this power for all needs. The words for a specific account may need to be stated as in the names and numbers of accounts etc. , if the words are not written as the institutions legal department see's fit they can deny you using the papers for a certain purpose.
As for Government .... I found that they have there own way of dealing with a P.O.A. situation. I believe this is for protection purposes. If they made it easy someone could really do damage to someones credit and finances. Imagine if You could easily call S.S. and say Mom is sick give me her income?
What I really don't understand is that most of us go to a Lawyer to have the papers written and none of these things are explained to us as a paying customer and if you find your self in the position of "What now?" it cost us more money for the, Lawyers, carelessness in the first place, by them not explaining anything in detail.
I really love my Lawyer but I must say it is really not fare.
I bet at this point I could give an education to a lot of people on how it "really works"
but no one wants to listen to me because I don't have the degree to charge a lot of money.

Thought this might be useful to explain to all what the SSA requires of a "representative payee" ... also spells out a ton of important information to know if you are considering taking on this role for someone:

http://www.ssa.gov/payee/LessonPlan-2005-2.htm#WHATISPAYEE