Does spouse need protection from parent who refuses to go into a home?

I feel like we are just going through the motion and that mom will be coming back home. Yesterday was the day we were to get her into the Dr. office. Here is how things went.

The first thing we noticed and found suspicious is how clean the home is now staying since APS made their visit. Hum, scratch head suspicious. SW is still going through her speech of how she hopes this works and how she wonders if we should just carry her to hospital instead or have her see a psychiatrist and how she will no longer be able to see her. Her wordings made me yet again suspicious that they are still not making an effort to help us but to help themselves.

Hospice had mom all ready to go. However, she had a bowel moment just before it was time to go and they had to change her all over again so we would not be late. The ride over was very calm, which is totally opposite of what was normal. Hum, suspicious again.

Once at the Dr. office (who is also over hospice in our area), it was quickly explained to us that we could not force mom into a nursing home (no one could) and that there is not an established history with the physician office (something along those lines). In other words, people cannot go from home to nursing home without a hospital stay in order for it to be covered by Medicare. Then it was explained that because moms vitals (oxygen, bp, temp) were so good that there was no need for hospital.

Then Dr. did this quickie test of memory and mom mostly passed with flying colors. She got all right except for year (2004) and month (March). Now we suspicious because it feels like mom has been coached and for the first time in a long time on her meds as she should. Seems someone has told her what we are trying to do.

I guess the only good part is that she made it known that we can’t tell her what to do and that she is in control of her. Then she goes on to say we trying to get her out of the way so that we can take over her possessions. Sorry mom but you don’t have assets to take and the home is falling down. Dr. says he will have a psychiatrist come over and speak to mom and us because that may be our only chance.

He comes over, does this quick test, and says he sees maybe a BIT of dementia and a few behavioral problems. Afterwards, we spend another hour trying to convince mom and with hubby explaining why he no longer wants to be caregiver. She goes on and on how she is in control of her and needs no help. How she needs to go back home and pack first and come back on her own terms. Finally, we roll over to behavioral unit. I’m sure she is going to say she never said yes.
So now, we are over at behavioral unit. It is as we are just visiting. They told us visiting hours, told us we can bring her over all the things she is demanding. Told us they are going to give her rehab and group therapy. Again, mom is answering questions and being super nice and friendly. This makes us wonder if we get a show when she is at home.

We feel she is going to do what she has to do to get back home and then the cycle will repeat. Hubby is carrying over the things she demanded. I still mentioned changing locks on the door at her home but am not sure anything is going to come from all this trouble.

I feel we are going to get punked repeatedly. After all the lies and talking about us especially her son like a dog, I would not carry her a darn thing.

If they clear her as being fine to be in her own home in charge of her, the tell her and sw and docs she's on her own. Let them send a visiting nurse to manage meds and an aide to help with showers and the like.

Sounds to me that hospice pulled a fast one on you. They cleaned the house, they sent a nurse over twice a day to give meds, they bathed and dressed her and did the laundry. NOW the Drs have said that she is fine and can live alone so she can be discharged from hospice probably today. they don't even need to tell you as she is COMPETENT. Beware the hand that appears to be trying to feed you. Your suspicions were more than well founded. That SW should be disbarred or defrocked whatever they do to SWs.
The good news is that she is competent so you don't need to worry about her. Without hospice next time she goes to the ER there will not be an ambulance to take her home again so nail hubby's feet to the floor and don't let him fetch her home. If the EMTs can't get into the house they can call the police who certainly can break in for them. Sooner or later you will come to this so make it sooner. Pack a suitcase and leave if you have to, if this goes on you are getting close to that anyway and if hubby does not see your concerns for your family so be it you know where his loyalties lie. Tough, tough love. Wish I had had big girl panties 20 years ago when hubby came home from his first fling.

I told my spouse this morning that SW claimed that wherever mom ended up she would no longer be able to visit. Then all of a sudden, she called this morning saying she is going to the behavioral unit to visit. Fast forward to noon here comes the call from the company who sets up her oxygen tank and all saying they need to pick up all equipment. Now a part of hospice team calls saying what to do with meds. Really, do you want me to tell you what to do with them?
We are scrambling now to find out what now. She is in behavioral unit at hospital but I believe they said they would only evaluate her for 72-hours.
Do you think we can still get her in the home if the behavioral unit says she is competent? Do you think the ambulance will still transport her back home?

Hubby all upset again. Help Yall Please?

If people are calling to pick up equipment and hospice wants you to dump the meds, I wouldn't think she is coming back to you. Stay away for the full 72hrs because she can't keep up the charade for that long. The SW went there to give them her side of the story, whatever that will be.

You know what I have never seen anything like this in my life (still very young of course) and hope to never see any such thing again ever in my life. I want off this medical/emotional roller coaster.

Every time mom is discharged from the hospital she can’t walk, she refuses to eat, she can’t change herself, she can’t make the toilet right next to her bed, she can’t take her meds, she refuses to wear her diapers, she can’t this and she can’t that and we, we, we. However, a few minutes ago, we went to drop off the items requested by the behavioral unit at hospital and they went to bragging on mom – how she was able to walk to dining room table, how she is using potty in room, changing herself, and taking meds on her own. Mom goes I told yall I do not need help and can do things on my own.

The nurse explained that we needed to explain this again to the psychiatrist but he never showed up while we waited a little over an hour. She goes on to explain that after rehab she will be ready for home and hospice will pick back up.

We still think changing the locks on the home will be a good idea??? Do you? Therefore, if they discharge mom to home, we can give numbers of other family members and let them check her out if they want making them take responsibility. We will stop visits - they forced it on us today saying to wait on doctor in the very room where she was sitting.

This saga stopped making sense a looong time ago!! You got her into a behavioral unit for a complete evaluation that she did not really want, that was something. She now acts like she can take care of herself, despite previously demanding you to be at her beck and call for everything, and has shown that she can do quite a bit when she wants to. And if she can when she wants to, she can when she has to. You are well within your rights to simply refuse to be a part of the charade. If we have a patient who has alienated family and will not care for them, we have to make other discharge plans. The fact that she missed the year and the month on her orientation testing means something significant, BTW. That's a lot of years to be off by. Did you have photos of what a mess the house was before the (apparently self-serving, butt-covering, basically totally dishonest) agency people or whoever cleaned it all up? I do not understand what changing the locks at the house would do? (I am probably just being dense) nor how you could not have the chance to meet with the psychiatrist; if there was some emergency and he or she could not make the meeting, they could have told you that and rescheduled. I hope that the SW and hospice people aren't in there trying to convince the psychiatrist of their own side of the story (that MIL would be just fine if only that son and daughter in law of hers would cooperate, right?) but I have a feeling it should all be pretty transparent to a geriatric specialist worth his or her salt if they do. Maybe try to get a meeting again, not right in MILs room this time.

Answry, I don't think she can fake sanity for 72 hours. Just stay away and let it play out.

Hospice has obviously discharged her so they wont transport her home. If hubby picks her up under any circumstances it is on his own head. She very clearly is not hospice appropriate and there was a definite conflict with the personal physician being the medical director of hospice. Don't bother changing the locks on Mom's house. I would sugest that your family takes some vacation begining today. Tell your family you will be away and where Mom is. Leave contact information with a trusted friend who will keep an eye on your house and relay information to you . Have the post office hold your mail and cancel the newspaper and GO. Keep in touch with us of course and just have a good rest.

Yup, either take a vacation or just DON'T pick up the phone. There is no law that says you have to take care of your parents if they don't cooperate with you.

They claimed the psychiatrist was seeing a patient over at the main hospital. I overheard them tell him over the phone we wanted to speak with him again. Then finally, they say he was downstairs. I guess doc passed out because we finally gave up because he never showed up. We left and ran some errands (about 15 minutes top). Hubby decided to check with them one last time before we headed home. This time they claimed he had just left to see another patient.

Changing the locks was mentioned when I posted the very first time but since that would be useless now we will not change anything.

No photos were taken. However, spouse says *** it they do not have to believe him and that he is exhausted. He just has to be exhausted enough to no longer visit for a while and to refuse transporting her home.

I cannot say this enough. You all are sent by God. Much love and hugs.

Hugs and love to you and your husband. Stand strong!

Ok, you are approaching the 24 hour mark. She should be starting to unravel. Stay away and let it play out. Nobody can "showtime" for 3 days straight.

Well the update from SW of BU today is mom had some type of breathing episode last night (yup, just like we’ve tried to tell you idiots over and over that this happens constantly – even with oxygen therapy and breathing treatments. They also said they had to change some of her meds and started her on some treatment to help with some hallucinations and agitation episodes.

Now we know that some of these screams and seeing things were not just shows for us.

Then they mentioned physiatrist is saying mom requires 24/7 care (duh we know). Then they say to pick out a nursing home (done long time ago but cannot be enforced). They also say get lawyer for poa papers back to them for signature of physiatrist and two physicians who have also evaluated and willing to put it in writing of 23/7 nursing requirement.

It is our understanding that with POA mom would need to be of sound mind and willing to sign. APS says she would not need to sign. It was also mentioned they might declare her not of sound mind. Well, each call to an attorney stated that POA requires mom being of sound mind and willing to sign. Conservatorship at $1500 means mom is consenting and at $2500 mom is not consenting. POA is $150. We know from reading here that guardianship/conservatorship can get much more expensive than what is mentioned.

We also spoke with nursing home that previously saw mom. They tried to visit and see what needs to take place in their opinion and how to get her qualified. SW at BU stated they could not visit and could only do so when BU SW could be in room because mom in bad mood today.

They state they plan to discharge in a week or less – next week. They also here and there mention hospice picking back up. I guess that is if we cannot get something done.

We are thinking to visit one last time maybe next week to see if she would sign either document (all attorneys state mom would have to sign). If not, we plan to provide numbers of other family members. Right now, we agree not to pick mom up and carry her back home just like last time when the ambulance brought her back home. We have not notified family yet because they are also part of the guilt trip (do not put your mom away). They provide plenty of lip service but no action. And I don’t see how getting your love one the help they need when you can’t provide it is putting them away as if you are never going to see them again.

I know you all are as confused and tired as we are at this point. But could you please see us through a little while longer.

Does any of this make sense - especially the POA/Conservatorship?

PUTTING A DEMENTED, ILL PARENT IN A NURSING HOME IS NOT "PUTTING THEM AWAY". It's getting them the professional caregiving they need. I feel strongly about this. My mom's physical and mental needs are beyond my capacity to safely deal with and so are your mil's.

Yes, now you have it on good authority that she can no longer be on her own. The staff are in your court. POA is supposed to be done while a person is still legally competent. Since she has not been DECLARED legally incompetent, you might get away with it. Bascially you get the signature, if you can, by letting her understand that if she does not sign it you will not be able to help her and the state will decide where she goes, not you. That would not be a dishonest statement. If she is too paranoid to sign it, you will have to go with plan B. If there had been a POA in place, your two doctor's letters of incapacity would have put it in full force, and made it pretty much not changeable unless someone else contested that the designated POA was not doing their job.

Plan B, Guardianship/conservatorship is harder, but you have more than enough grounds for it. The legal and court fees could and should come from MILs funds ultimately. We did not have to do it for my Mom or Dad, and I was glad. not just because of the added expense, but also because the person has a chance to see the paperwork and contest it is they are able. It was interesting - I had been doing all Mom's finances with it, and until I went to sell her home, we had not needed anything else; at that point, the bank let me know I had to get her to formally resign as dad's POA and get them the incapacity letters for her, which then qualified me to act alone for everything we needed to do. Both things were relatively easy, other than emotionally. I had the blessing that Mom knew I was trustworthy and she trusted me. I do not know if there is an option for the state to take over an provide a guardian if you can't, or how good that option might be. After all you have gone through, those cost estimates seem like a lot but I would say do whatever it takes to get things settled so MIL can get care and you and hubby can begin to recover and have some peace. The wishful thinking family members, who probably do not believe or want to believe that she has hallucinations and delusions and didn't know what year it was, and who are not stepping up to DO the 24/7 care at home have no business insisting you try to do it, instead of finding a decent facility that can actually provide what she needs. Then you, and they, can visit and do what you can easily and happily do for her to make her life better, without constant stress and distress all around.

I see a light at the end of the tunnel. (I don't think it is an oncoming train, either...but I am glad you have already gotten some legal help involved (!)

Vstefans, I hope everything is on good authority with doctors and hubby, lol. I have no faith in either, which is what the good book states. Mom knows how to beat the system. We took her over a couple of brand new pajama sets for her mom day gifts this afternoon and she gladly let us see her painted nails, her hair style, and bragging about all the good food she is eating, blah blah. I am sorry but this makes me ANGRY because we cannot get her to do any of it once at home. This has happened just too many times.
Then the aid comes in and asks spouse, do you want me to wash the clothes from last week? He looked puzzled and then she said, your mom says you wash all her clothes and stuff. We gave them permission. Well, since we did not do that, she went on to give her list of demands of what she needed while she waited to be sent home next week. She also went on to explain why she does not like the nursing home idea and by then we were well other errands have to go.
We stopped at front desk to see if meeting had been schedule with SW for next week. They say no, just keep calling. Then nurse goes on to say how well she is doing, how she cannot believe mom needed hospice, and how we should give her another chance.
My questions:
(Plan A) Should we go ahead and have the power of attorney done and then try getting her to sign or talk to her first with SW to see if she will sign before paying to have it done?
(Plan B) I was also reading on here that some people go straight to probate court (I think that was the name) without a lawyer and was able to get guardianship. I wonder if that would be an option.
(Plan C) If she is not agreeing to Plan A or Plan B then when they discharge her, we will not pick her up. I just pray hubby can hold up and I do not have to fight him. I worry about Plan C because there are so many keys to her home floating around (all hospice staff has keys, her brother has keys, her grandson has keys, on and on). Someone could pick her up from the hospital and then disappear leaving her on us once again.

Another chance to do what? Nurse who said that must not be aware that the doctors already determined she needs full time care. It really is nice she is accepting care from others, though I understand the resentment that she would never accept that from you! It sounds to me like another reason to get her into care and nto even try home care again. I have NO idea about what going to probate court for guardianship with no lawyer would look like, but if someone she trusts could encourage her to sign the POA that would probably be good. Look, it sounds like she never needed hospice, she just needed someone to take charge and stop letting her live in the mess of her bad judgements and (non-) decision-making. She's not beating the system any more, just putting a good face on her dire situation and that's fine.

Forget the POA, she cannot sign one. Nor will she consent to Guardianship, so plan on a contested petition. Nor do you pick her up and take her back home, the SW would have your head on a platter for neglect. You find a proper facility and get her transported there. And change the locks ASAP, or relatives will run off with all her stuff. Remove nothing or the Judge will hang you.

As usual Pam is on the money. Do you want POA or guardianship?
You two need to be out from any responsibility. Pam is right she is not going to sign anything voluntarily. From what I read here guardianship takes sometime to get. Put it in writing to the facility, Dr. Social worker, and anyone else you can think of and mail it 1st class,return receipt that you will no longer be responsible for Mom/MIL. You are unable to continue because of your husbands health and your need to work to put food on the table. Take you husband to a nice hotel for a couple of weeks and turn off your phones. They can email you if they want but they can not force you to take responsibility.
As Pam said change the locks and inform the police you will be away and request they check the house. If another family member picks her up and that's what the hospital will try let them know in writing that you do not accept responsibility. If that happens alert APS again by mail. I can almost guarentee that she will be sitting in filth again within a couple of days because thats the way she gets your attention. now she may not be able to help it either.
Warn the family that you are done and if they spring MIL it will be on their head. I realize today was mothers day which was why you went but stop visiting. You will find her stting on he bed in street clothes and a nurse nearby with a wheel chair and hubby will cave. Find a desert island somewher and get him away even if you have to drug him. See if you can get his dr to order him to take a vacation. One slip up now and MIL is yours for ever. Warn/threaten hubby with dire consequences if he wavers and be prepared to carry through, Blessings you need them. we are all right behind you ready to pass the ammunition

Don't forget you and your husband are free to REFUSE to accept either POA or guardianship. The downside is that refusing would deprive you of any lead control over his mother's care, but it would also ensure you could not be held responsible for her.

And don't let anyone make you feel like a worm for refusing. Done properly, these roles are onerous and time-consuming, and anyone who does agree to accept them needs to take them seriously and be fully aware of what he's letting himself in for. Too many people take them on and then either make a pig's breakfast of it or find themselves swamped by the duties.

Nothing terrible will happen to MIL as a consequence - there will be an administrative mess, but she won't be having to handle it AND NEITHER WILL YOU :|)

Spoke with SW again and he says mom is still not willing to sign anything. SW suggested seeing a lawyer to have some legal form drawn up that would allow doctor and physiciatrist to give professional opinion. These forms have to be notarized. They plan to get that part done tomorrow. We also got all Medicaid paperwork done. I drafted a letter contesting mom being sent back home and stated where we wanted her transported. When hubby presented the forms, he also hand delivered the letter to social worker. Not sure if that would hold like return receipt. I had planned to send them out today after getting back in town from work. However, SW is claiming the form is all they need. Lawyer says if this does not work, I will deduct what you paid today off my $1500 fee for guardianship, which normally takes about 30 days. Great, if she gets back home it would take an army to remove her.

I am trying to convince hubby to change the locks. I am trying to convince him to power down the home (have utilities disconnected) so that if some smart person tries to bring her back home they would be forced to carry mom with them. Hubby keeps saying wait until we know mom is in the nursing home. What if someone brings mom home and they leave her outdoors after they see everything is cut off. What if hospital discharges mom, brings her back home, and decides to leave her in the front lobby this weekend because everything is cut off.

That is where we are now as of today. Lol when I say we, I mean we as in you all as well.

Look at it this way; if you don't have POA or guardianship, them mil is certifying that she is "fine by myself". If she demands to be transported home and husband has already stated that you guys cannot be responsible for her safety, then if they drop it off, it's on their heads and MIL's. This won't happen of course; they will take mil to NH and she'll bleat like a stuck pig for a while and then settle down. Hugs and good thoughts!

I had written a long reply but my ISP dropped me so I"ll try again.
Hand delivering a letter does not give you any proof you need a signature. Co-operating with ( and paying) a lawyer to get POA and/or guardianship will get you control and responsibility for MIL.It also won't be the fastest way into a nursing home.
Time for tough love.
Hospice already set you up once don't let the hospital SW do the same. Mom won't sign anything that is a given (and may not be considered competent by the psychiatrist.)
i know this is hard but if hubby makes Mom his first priority over you and your son that is surely a sign of things to come. You may trully love him but is it right to suffer this kind of abuse? He can not manage Mom alone and is not well enough to take proper care of her. Who changes her Depends? cleans the floor? changes her bed? Without your involvement she will be lying in filth within 24 hours and if you let her Adult protective services will be after you and you could be arrested for neglect. leaving aside the fact that she will be crying on the phone to you and calling the numbers those oh so helpful SWs left for her if she ever need any help.
Remember all these people know each other. They go to meetings and conferences and probably have worked together in other organizations as sure as the sun comes up every day they will gang up on you.
So fight for your health, sanity and marriage, even if it means making threats and being prepared to carry them out. Plenty of others have been in similar situations and wished they had behaved differently. loving someone does not guarentee they will love you back, sad as that sounds. I don't mean to be cruel but I do have personal experience living with damaged goods. Your son does not deserve this. you may not talk in front of him but kids have the longest ears in the world.
My advice to you today if it is not too presumptios is to buy your self a new six pack of big girl panties on the way home from work and practice saying "NO" and meaning it, all day. Everytime you go to the rest room look in the mirror and mouth"We are not doing this" Do not sign anything you do not want guardianship or POA. Blessings - will be thinking about you, it is so hard.

I'd say keep copies of everything you hand-deliver too. Here's hoping you don't need the whole paper trail (though better to have it and not need it than the other way around) and that the next thing that happens is what needs to happen. I think your current SW wants to see a good resolution to this and may be doing the right things the right way, but it sure is hard to tell!

Hubby is adamant that mom is not coming home at least not by him. I hope he can stay strong because the telephone calls have started. Family talking again about hiring people. Hum, that is what you have said repeatedly – but never happened. Hubby explained the situation again because of course they say they had no idea things were that bad. Spouse also told the need for 24/7 care. I guess it is because you are () and do not want to comprehend. Hospice called asking had mom been placed in nursing home and so we went ahead with the certified mails, we shutdown all utilities, and the last thing will be to change the locks. However, with locks changed, hopefully if any family tries to be sneaky they will be forced to come by for key or take her with them. I do not think ambulance service would try to break down door. I pray everything goes off without a glitch. Thanks everyone for keeping us in prayers and mind. Lord knows what is left of the fake family probably will be gone if mom ends up where she does not want to go. I pray that is opposite as well and that everyone eventually understands it is what is best for mom.

Everyone got the certified mail today.

So here comes vm from SW at hospital saying the physician forms have been signed and carried back to our attorney. Now it’s asked how we coming with power of attorney. In addition, they asked us to check with nursing home to see what needs to be done by family for placement. All that was told to us previously was get her switched over to Medicaid and the two physician forms.

Nursing home say they have not even been given the ok for a visit and have not received any paperwork from SW for placement when the discharged is said to be taking place this Friday.

Now hubby screaming he knew utilities should not have been disconnected. Now he screaming at the SW because SW is saying mom is still refusing placement and they can't make her.

I'm about to start screaming what all of them can do sick of this. Trying to call APS again but no answer. Even last time speaking to them (APS) it was as long as she is doing better nothing they could do.

I think hubby needs to carry new key to hospital and tell them all to shove it. The system sucks.

I still think yiu should all go away for a few days. If hubby wants to stay home so be it.
It is true unless mom is declared incompetent she is free to refuse to go to nursing home.
As I have said before she is not going to sign anything.
The hospital and before them hospice has been trying to tune her up so she can appear capable. I don't know what they are playing at but certainly have an agenda that is not good for you guys or Mom. In the mean time she is thoroughly enjoying herself. Let someone else get the POA and make the arrangements if they want her home. I can not say this often enough Leave, leave, leave. Don't reconnect the utilities she is not safe to be at home. LEAVE

Hubby plans to follow me to work tomorrow so that will take care of tomorrow. We went out of town last weekend so we could probably find something for this weekend. First time in ages that we’ve been able to leave town enjoy, and not have to rush back.

At first they said poa would not work because she was incompetent and now it sounds like things have changed. He is even saying she is refusing to sign anything so why put out any more money. Nursing home going to call tomorrow with their update.

I’m listening closely to hubby and trying to take ques gauging if he is sincere. He says he is dropping at front desk the key to lock he just changed, and her cards that pay her bills. He also says we will not take any more calls after speaking with SW today.

lets just hope for the best and that he is not just blowing smoke