i'm an only child of two only children, and I had kids young. we've always made sacrifices for me be the stay at home parent. i homeschool my three youngest children, freelance and work from home, and we share space with my aging father.
my mom passed on 10 years ago, and my father asked our family to move in with him at that time. i was not a fan of this idea - but my husband reasoned that if we did this for just a few years, it could be mutually beneficial to help him cope with the worst of his grief, and to help us get ahead financially.
well, we were there for a lot longer - and finally moved out in early 2020. It became clear, then, that my father was having a much harder time living alone than he expected, and we ended up having to check on him at least monthly, cut the grass, etc. he cannot take care of the house or yard, does not cook, and can no longer do laundry. he's always enjoyed pretending that he doesn't need help, and we are the ones who need him - but the past two years made it clear that's not the case.
finally, a few months ago - we were facing a rent increase, and my father's dog died. we made the very difficult decision to move back into his home, and he was delighted. if we had not come back, he would be looking at assisted living arrangements.
my husband is a handyman, and we've already had to explain to my father that he cannot make instant demands of his time to fix things around the house and yard that are not remotely urgent. this still happens at least weekly.
it's mentally and emotionally exhausting to deal with his constant need for social input and arguments (he would say friendly banter), all while he tells us how he hates people!
we are in the process of converting the shed so that we can have an office space to retreat to, because the kids and I constantly feel on edge, no matter where we go in the house or yard.
ok - financials. my father's a veteran, and apparently he's set up "something" that will pay me 55% of his retirement benefits for the rest of my life, after he passes on. however - I've read that there are also options for me to get paid as a caregiver now? what would that entail?
he's never been financially savvy, and i know he has no roth IRA, no investments, etc. he has recently become a bit more open to discussing things like a living trust arrangement, to avoid a massive tax bill later.
we are clear that this house will become a rental property once my father's gone - but he absolutely won't hear that, and keeps expecting us to make updates to the house as if we'll live here forever. however - my husband's work clients are all 1-1.5 hours away.
our two adult kids also live 2 hours away, and we all miss each other a lot. it's confusing for all of us, because don't aging parents typically move to live near their adult children, and not the other way around? my father thinks my adult kids are ridiculous for moving away to the city instead of staying here (with no college and no job prospects)!
so, how am I to have real financial conversations about any of this with my father, when he seems to think my entire family exists to amuse and care for him? thank you in advance if you've read this far.
You don't mention your father suffering from dementia, but perhaps he is, if he's so argumentative and self absorbed? Even if he isn't, it's never a good idea to give narcissistic people too much info about anything b/c then they tend to use it against you. The less 'supply' you give them, the better. So don't talk to him about renting out his house after he passes; that won't help you in any way b/c he'll just argue the stupidity of doing such a thing. Never taking into consideration the reality that your DH's clients are all located very far away. Hello? Narc types can't see past the tips of their own noses, how true is that?
What concerns me is that your 3 young children are being exposed to a toxic grandfather every day, but hopefully he treats them well? And that you have to convert a shed to retreat to because you're all feeling on edge so often. It's not good for kids to be feeling on edge all the time, nor is it good for YOU! Why are you so opposed to having dad go into Assisted Living? My own parents lived in AL for 7 years and had a great time doing so. They had autonomy, a lovely apartment of their own, a great social life, functions to attend all the time, card games dad played with the men, dances on the weekend, too much to mention.
If I were you, I would consider getting dad into an Assisted Living apartment and taking your lives back, primarily for your children's sake. I grew up in a house where my grandmother lived with us and all I ever had was a stomach ache to show for it. I vowed NEVER to take my parents in to live with me in their old age as a result of that experience, and I didn't. In reality, they wound up with a much better life in AL than they would have had with me. That's the God's honest truth, too.
Wishing you the best of luck with all you have on your plate.
only a few years ago he was still driving a corvette - now he has a big truck, but I will not allow the children to ride with him anymore bc I have doubts about his safety as a driver. (he did just re-take the state test and he passed, so that's something).
we actually hashed out a LOT of behavioural boundaries with him when my kids were younger, and my 20yo daughter has said that in a way, she learned a lot about how to handle unreasonable, rude people from him - even if that's not the type of legacy any of us would have hoped for him to pass on to my kids. my younger ones are feisty and assertive, much more than i was able to be as a child - and we back them up as appropriate. It's a constant balancing act of being assertive and direct without tolerating (or causing!) disrespect.
It's such a lot of work to keep having to "tend the fences", so to speak.
interestingly - my poor mother was the caregiver to both of her parents and my father's mum, starting when I was 13. and I mean Caregiving - sponge baths, bedpans, laundry, every single meal, transport to and from dr. appointments...all with dementia which meant they didn't know who any of us even were. it was tragic and hostile - and my parents both swore if they ever got to "that point" - they would never do that to me.
two of my three grandparents passed on within two years of them living with us, but my grandfather hung on until i was 17 and expecting my first child. i definitely feel like caregiving shortened my mom's life - she was only 69 when she passed.
thank you for "listening" - it's helpful for me to type this all out to get clarity.
Contact your local Veterans Assistance Commission and set up an appointment.
the VA also has programs that will help to cover costs of renovations IF IT IS FOR THE VETERANS BENEFIT and will enable the Veteran to remain in the home.
As far as the work that your husband does on the house IF your father is cognizant you make it clear to him that weekends would be the time for any repairs that need to be done. If it is an emergency then your husband can do the work OR call a professional to do the work.
Tell your dad that the decisions that your children have made about their futures are their decisions not yours, your husbands or their grandpas.
As far as the younger kids go and homeschooling them get your dad used to the idea that "work hours and school hours" are from X:00 to X:30 (example 8:00 am to 3:30 pm) and during that time you and the children can not be disturbed.
If you have to block off a room for your classroom do so. (it better be a pretty big shed you are building)
It is a matter of setting and KEEPING boundaries that you have to establish.
yes, that's the general conversation we always have - we remind him it's their life, and he goes on about how stupid their choices are and how they should just move closer to him (us). we've gotten good at the "grey rock" technique of just giving vague, uninteresting answers, or nodding and smiling and changing subjects.
it actually is a decent-sized shed, with a loft! my father can't really balance well on non-paved terrain anymore, and the shed is a good 150 feet from the house. we often take lessons outside - but it's getting too warm for that.
i've explained a thousand times that my work is online, and that it may look like I'm "doing nothing" but actually - by then i've already lost the thread of what i was doing before he interrupted me. he has even facetimed my child to demand that she go tell me to come inside right now - i'm thinking, emergency! no, he just wanted me to fix his printer. right now!
every time these things happen i speak to him about it - sometimes quite assertively...he seems surprised, minimizes the situation, buys me a box of chocolates or something as an olive branch. and then another thing happens some other time, soonafter. it's gotten better over the years...but it never really gets better with a narc, ofc.
Hmmmm, ok as a 3rd thing you want to see this magic policy in full and you are going to take it to someone to evaluate it. I’m guessing its some sort of “annuity” he bought and it was sold by an insurance agent but touted as an investment that is ok for Medicaid rules (not entirely true) & he may still be paying into it. It sounds way odd as the way he described it as a “retirement benefits” doesn’t exist for you as his daughter; retirement benefits are paid to former employee who is now a retiree and to their spouse if the retiree predeceases them. Retirement benefits in my understanding are not ever paid to kids unless the kids are still a dependent of the retiree. VA pays survivor benefit to a spouse &/or a child under 18 or if child has a permanent disability from childhood. You’re not any of these categories are you? Get the policy and find a stockbroker who hold an insurance license to look it over for ya. Be prepared for dad to not be at all receptive or agreeable if in fact this policy is NOT at all what he thought it was.
but 1st and 2nd things are to legally become his DPOA and them to become a signatory on all his banking and financials. And you go to the bank with him and do this to make are sure it happens and also you become PoD on all accounts and open an online access to all the accounts. If he has investments ditto. If he won’t do this, tell him in 30 days you are moving back and renting a place. AND LEAVE!. Maybe ask one of the kids to find you a place in their city that’s a short term rental….. really it will be easy peasy for them to find stuff in the right price range, much easier that you ever could. Hubs and you having to spend an 1-2 hours to see clients isn’t sustainable unless it’s clients you see once or twice a month and make major money from them.
why oh why would Dad think there will be a massive tax bill? Is dad a multimillionaire with $M+ in bank accounts? Does he have a potential huge estate with homes & lands that are worth $$$$$? I’m guessing not, this is all BS talk of a narcissist. You have to call his bluff otherwise he will consider you and hubs & your kids to be beneath him and unworthy of his largess. I’d be concerned that unless you get real changes as to his property ownership done now - that he will be forever be threatening to change his mind as to who inherits. Once you see his finances then find an elder law atty for you & dad to go see to come up with options that work best. He needs to do something that very definitely gives you some degree of security (if I were to guess it would be placing home & land into a Trust, not life estate but a trust) and ability to do things for his behalf in the future by having POA and signature on financials.
ok on the not entirely true, LTC Medicaid rules are strict in gifting. If you gift $, you get transfer penalty & ineligible unless over 5 years ago. But if you place money into an annuity that you are owner of, it’s ok as it’s your $ in your name….. but when it pays others that $ is gifting. Should dad need to apply for LTC Medicaid, Medicaid likely either want it cashed out or they become the 1st beneficiary. Insurance agent who sold it DNGAF as he’s already made his fat commission & what he told you that putting $ was ok for Medicaid rules was right, he just left out the later on sticky part.
my husband works 4 days a week typically, so driving is an unpaid part time job, not even counting toll bills. it's brutal - and a big part of why we moved before. we're both self-employed and i know my husband loves the stability of not having a housing bill every month, but it comes at such a high cost to our ...sanity?
i don't know my father's exact amounts on anything, but he's def not a millionaire and has always bragged about not investing (?) he is a good consumer and loves to shop. it's a constant effort to minimize his hoarding tendencies. the attic is a nightmare of "treasures".
there's really nobody else who could inherit but me, at this point. he cut ties with all his other family before i was born. he says he's set up everything to go to me - but yes - best to clarify and not just take his word on all this. i will look up elder law attorneys and also a financial advisor.
My father is quite happy with this arrangement as it allows him to be in denial of his own aging for as long as possible. My husband is far from “comfortable” but he seems to feel that it’s our duty to stay here—not to mention, it eases our (mainly his) financial burden.
But while it appears this works quite well for Dad, having live-in help - it's not working so well for you - with children & work clients so far away.
So what would be the practical thing for you all to do?
Q. Are you the only person in the world that can provide meals, do laundry or fix things for Dad? Or can *non-family* do these things? (even if he has to pay).
Q. Can you find an alternative place to live? (Even if you have to pay a bit more?)
Is this a direction you want?
(I don’t explain that, exactly. I just change the subject.)
We live in an area where rent is incredibly high, so we’d be facing major life compromises no matter what. Apartments are “cheaper” but still high—and we’ve all agreed we slightly prefer this to apartment living. Slightly :)
thank you to all who have responded. It gives me a lot to consider.
Your mother taught you well how not to value or honor your own feelings, didn't she?
How do you intend to handle the additional expense of assisted living and at the same time the expenses of the home you live in? You moved into a home your dad owns, now you want him to move elsewhere at an additional expense on his part.
If it is not working out shouldn't it be you and your family moving instead of the owner? If he needs to move to assisted living he would need the proceeds from the sale of his home to help pay for his living arrangements.
You obviously cannot afford to maintain his home and a place for him in assisted living. Your standards of living should not be relied upon with help coming from an aging parent.
Every one of us would be devastated if expenses for his care required the sale of his house - so maybe what we are really weighing here is potential loss of the house vs. the costs of me being his caretaker.
2. Your husband is doing this for a free place to live. The whole sense of duty thing is bull. Have you both been putting aside what would have been a mortgage or rent payment each month? If not then you need to start otherwise it is pointless to live with dad if you are not saving money like crazy.
I don't see how living an hour and a half from work clients is cost effective. But that does mean with all his travel he has to spend less time at home with dad. A win for him only. Yeah sense of duty in a pigs eye.
3. If you are paying for updates to dad's house without anything in writing about getting this house when dad passes then it is like you are updating and remodeling a rental house. Which is foolish.
4. If you can't have a grown up talk with dad about any of the above just be prepared to be shafted when he dies regarding all his "promises." Many old people lie to get what they want. Their logic being it wont matter after they are dead because they wont have to deal with the fallout.
5. My recommedation is to move out of dad's house. The constant stress your younger children are under living there will be much more damaging (consequences in the future you arent even aware of right now) than whatever little bit of money you are supposedly saving. Shame on both of you for not putting the well being of your children first.
To the OP, living with constant tension, which you mention as the conditions you and your kids live with is REALLY bad for your health. VERY bad for your childrens' health.
Have you googled F.O.G? Fear, Obligation and Guilt?
I would then say that you need to dig a little deeper, as a trust is only needed if he has millions and millions, like 12 million so that shouldn't be needed.
As for the other inheritance, I would verify that this does indeed exist and what the actual guidelines are. My father had a pension, if he died first his wife would get 1/2, she preceded him, when he died the pension died with him.
Sounds like your father owns his house, however, it may have to be sold before he dies, we sold my mothers & step mothers houses when we placed them in AL as they did not qualify for Medicaid.
Might be time to start planning for your own financial future and not be so financially dependent on your father as there are no guarantees that there will be anything left when he passes.
I did not know a trust only makes sense if there's millions at stake. Unless he's got some major secrets...that's not going to be relevant.
I am meeting with a financial planner who specializes in elder care situations next week, and I've reached out to a friend who knows a lot about the VA. I'm also going to sit down with my father and look over his paperwork together, so we know for sure what he's set up.
yes, he owns his house. i know that lots of folks end up needing to sell their homes to pay for care, which is a travesty i hope we can avoid.
my husband and i spent a lot of years in the thick of parenting, while my father was more self suffient - then in the last two years, a LOT has changed about our situation: both a decline in my father's independence/health, and a significant increase in our finances.
so, it's time to re-evaluate what we're doing, and decide what makes sense for all of us. i appreciate all the helpful replies.
Am I eligible for a VA Survivors Pension as the child of a deceased wartime Veteran?
You may be eligible for this benefit if you’re unmarried and you meet at least one of these requirements.
At least one of these must be true:
You’re under age 18, or
You’re under age 23 and attending a VA-approved school, or
You’re unable to care for yourself due to a disability that happened before age 18
considering your situation, unfortunately, you have to give something to get something… Your benefiting by saving rent money. And your giving to help dad. Maybe you need a vacation from it all. Maybe learn to ignore , tell yourself as this goes on.. patience… I had to do it with my mom.. it helped not to react…
as far as your dads home becoming rental property when he’s gone, what does it matter what you do with your inheritance at that point. I wouldn’t count on the house being there for you. So many people have to sell their nest egg to pay for their care.
good luck, I could not have lived with my mom…
The exception are fee for service fiduciaries and they are few and far between.
Beware of FAs trying to sell annuities. There is a HUGE upfront sales charge that goes to the FA paid by YOU.
Best free financial advice comes from www.bogleheads.org.
As for F.O.G. - I've been re-reading about it today, thanks. i've actually been learning about NPD and C-PTSD for almost two decades, and have escaped an abusive ex partner.
You need to know:
1. Dad's SS payments
2. Dad's VA pension payments
3. What kind of Health insurance he has and how much he pays for it.
4. what pre-tax money dad has put away (Ira, 401k, 403b, 457)
5. Brokerage account totals.
6. Bank account totals
7. Contents of his will.
8. Who his financial and medical powers of attorney are.
9. How the house is currently titled.
10. What his debts are.
12. What his monthly expenses are, including food and insurance he pays for monthly.
13. What his yearly expenses are (property tax, insurance, water)--things he pays for yearly.
14. Does he have a reverse mortgage or HELOC.
I occasionally here from folks about "getting killed with inheritance/estate taxes".
Look up federal estate tax; it STARTS on estates of 12.06 million.
Some state have inheritance taxes.
Make sure your dad is dealing with facts and not the stuff he's "heard" on talk radio.
For the most part it seems to be on this forum problem happens as parents have put their home into a Trust; and parents have done this as they have heard if they do a Trust that it’s safe from Medicaid and safe from probate, safe from whatever bogieman they fear; and now the parents are older or needing to go into a facility and the kids are in a dilemma…..
The dilemma is that Trust was done as a stand-alone… its only the house & parents have been from their own $ paying all the costs on the only asset in the Trust aka the house. Mom uses her own social security income to pay taxes on the house which is owned by the Trust. Trust itself has no money, it’s just the damn house. So parents pay taxes, insurance, repairs, utilities, whatever legal needs to be done by the Trust as needed for years. Then something happens, parents no longer have $ or die and the trust aka the house becomes a problem.
the issue imo is that was a pretty useless Trust. Someone sold the folks on doing this type of “Trust”, made $ to ahem advise & do the paperwork and now vamoosed!
if I were to guess, you could do a property Trust for 400-500K, so Trust is a fully paid off house and 400/500k in a Trust owned brokerage account; it’s enough $ invested to “feed” the Trust to pay property costs for years if the $ is invested well and the manager Trustee is ok with smallish fee & plenty of $ if atty need to defund a Trust. If it’s big ranch &/or several properties and lots of expenses and tax filings those need $Ms++. If Trust has folks who are fully expecting Trust to support their lifestyle, those need $M’s & $M’s of $$$$$$ invested in several diff brokerage account & folks like this aren’t on this site…. they have people who have people…
You can do Trust with smaller 6 figure $ amounts but it may be difficult to find a FA who will manage it. Most FAs, especially those at the old wire houses, have a 1-2M investable minimum on Trusts. I think that’s why you see so many putting property in LLCs as it’s cheap and easy filings that can do a lot of the same things, like easily change owners and just do it on your LLC annual report filing.
Why does the house need to become a rental property? Does your Dad not own it?
If her husband would receive 100% of her pension that is very rare. She is correct by naming a survivor the monthly pension you receive will be lower. For me, I will receive 60% of my husbands pension as the survivor. My Mom received 40% of my Dads. I have heard that children can be listed as survivors which I don't understand.
My sister worked for the NSA for 20yrs at time of her death. She did not pay into SS but she did pay into a pension which works like SS. Since my nephew was 7 when she passed, he received money monthly from a pension annuity. Unlike SS, this continued after 18 because he was attending a Jr College. When the Jr College did not work out, I was able to get it continued because of the physical disabilities he suffers from. He continues to collect it.
I am interested in what Cham finds out about getting 55% of her Dads pension if its Military. Question, did your Dad put in 20 yrs with the Military and then work at a civilian job? Because if the company he worked for gives a pension and he is vested after working 10 yrs then he may get a small pension. Most places that offer pensions you have to work 10 years to receive the pension. I worked at a place that vested in 5, but that is unusual.